READER COMMENTS ON
(98 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 12:34 pm PT...
What happened yesterday that was historic? All I saw were some sour grapes ranting & raving about losing an election!
Get a better candidate for a starter, then move right to mainstream America.
OR, keep losing elections!
The choice is yours.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 12:43 pm PT...
Wonderful logo and overall graphic feel.
Viva la velvet revolution!!
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 12:56 pm PT...
to Dredd - I'll stop if you stop getting us into lost wars for corporate profit and torturing innocent people - including raping boys. It rubs off on blues, as well as reds.
Brad: thanks for the hard work.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 1:13 pm PT...
Mr. DeLAY. Mr. Speaker, what is happening here today is amazing but not surprising. Mr. Speaker, what we are witnessing here today is a shame. A shame. The issues at stake in this petition are gravely, gravely serious. This is not just having a debate. But the specific charges, as any objective observer must acknowledge, are not. That is because the purpose of this petition is not justice but noise. It is a warning to Democrats across the country, now in the midst of soul searching after their historic losses in November, not to moderate their party's message. It is just the second day of the 109th Congress and the first chance of the Democrat congressional leadership to show the American people what they have learned since President Bush's historic reelection, and they can show that, but they have turned to what might be called the ``X-Files Wing'' of the Democrat Party to make their first impression. Rather than substantive debate, Democrat leaders are still adhering to a failed strategy of spite, obstruction, and conspiracy theories. They accuse the President, who we are told is apparently a closet computer nerd, of personally overseeing the development of vote-stealing software. We are told, without any evidence, that unknown Republican agents stole the Ohio election and that its electoral votes should be awarded to the winner of an exit poll instead. Many observers will discard today's petition as a partisan waste of time, but it is much worse than that. It is an assault against the institutions of our representative democracy. It is a threat to the very ideals it ostensibly defends. No one is served by this petition, not in the long run. And in the short term, its only beneficiaries are its proponents themselves. Democrats around the country have asked since Election Day, and will no doubt ask again today, how it came to this. The Democrat Party, the party that was once an idealistic, forward-looking, policy colossus. The New Deal, the Marshall Plan, the Great Society, the space program, civil rights. And yet today one is hard pressed to find a single positive substantive idea coming from the left. Instead, the Democrats have replaced statecraft with stagecraft, substance with style, and not a very fashionable style at that. The petitioners claim that they act on behalf of disenfranchised voters, but no such voter disenfranchisement occurred in this election of 2004 and for that matter the election of 2000.
Everybody knows it. The voters know it, the candidates know it, the courts know it, and the evidence proves it. We are not here to debate evidence, but to act our roles in some scripted, insincere morality play. Now, just remember: pre-election memos revealed that Democrat campaign operatives around the country were encouraged by their high command in Washington to charge voter fraud and intimidation regardless of whether any of it occurred. Remember, neither of the Democrat candidates supposedly robbed in Ohio endorse this petition. It is a crime against the dignity of American democracy, and that crime is not victimless. The Democrat leadership came down to the floor and said this is a good debate; we ought to be having a debate on this issue. This is not a normal debate. This is a direct attack to undermine our democracy by using a procedure to undermine the constitutional election that was just held. If, as now appears likely, Democrats cry fraud and corruption every election regardless of the evidence, what will happen when one day voters are routinely intimidated, rights are denied, or, God forbid, an election is robbed? What will happen? What will happen when, God forbid, this quadrennial crying wolf so poisons our democratic processes that a similarly frivolous petition in a close election in the future is actually successful, and the American people are denied their constitutional right to choose their own President?
Mr. Speaker, Democrats must find a way to rise above this self-destructive and, yes, plain destructive theory of politics for its own sake. A dangerous precedent is being set here today, and it needs to be curbed, because Democrat leaders are not just hurting themselves. By their irresponsible tactics, they hurt the House, they hurt the Nation, and they hurt rank-and-file Democrats at kitchen tables all around this country. The American people, and their ancestors who invented our miraculous system of government, deserve better than this. This petition is beneath us, Mr. Speaker; but, more importantly, it is beneath the men and women that we serve. Mr. Speaker, I urge my colleagues, both Democrat and Republican, to do the right thing. Vote ``no,'' and let us get back to the real work that the American people hired us to do.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 1:36 pm PT...
People also need to know that DeLay single-handedly killed the Voter Confidence Act of 2003 (with a great deal of help from Dennis Hastert). A Bill introduced requiring verifiable paper trail. I've said it before, no Senator or Congressman publicly stated anything about vote stealing software. So why does DeLay use a political forum to deny charges that no Democratic Congressman or Senator publicly accused the Republican party of? One wonders. The Tell Tale heart beats rapidly indeed.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 1:39 pm PT...
Bard can we just ban this troll?
while i love having debate and always having a dialoge with those of different views, this asshat just wants to serve the prupose of inciting conflict.
Yes we can ignore him, but i think we should also take away his right to speak, as he has shown nothing but childishness and ignorance to anything posted, right or left.
anyone with me?
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 1:55 pm PT...
atty jimmo is a total waste of bandwidth. Like the Republicans, I'm all for people having their opinions...just as long as they are completely in agreement with my own. LOL!
Let him waste space on his own website posting long cut-n-paste from his asshat reps...
Cut the sucker loose, Brad. I'm sick of scrolling past him.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 1:58 pm PT...
Please explain to me how a "paper trail" is going to prevent software fraud of an election? Wouldn't they just program it to print a recipt for one candidate and record another?
Are you going to put people's names & addresses on these receipts because when they get tossed, then what? So everybody in the country will know how any poor sap that just chucks it in the street voted?
What about peole that will bring this receipt to parties willing to "reward them" for voting their way with cash and the receipt is the evidence they pay from.
Exactly WHAT good are "paper receipts" other than to keep the paper manufacturers busy? Think about it BECAUSE it DOES not MAKE sense!
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 2:06 pm PT...
I am all for free speech. But I don't see that we should have to put up with people who are rude, insulting, and use name-calling repeatedly. We would not put up with people like him if we met in person. Most of us would walk away and have nothing to do with such a person.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 2:29 pm PT...
While I agee that we shouldn't d feed the troll. We should also feel free to debate anyone who makes a semi-logical argument. That includes the troll master himself. If he starts with the name calling and bragging, then no we shouldn't reply to him at all. Censorship is what the Neocons do, not Progressives. I applaud Brad for standing by good principle.
In response to "Attorney" Jim, you don't take the paper receipt home. You leave it with the county boards for a recount. This would work in a place like let's say.....Ohio where a large number of Republicans probably voted for Kerry. Check out the website Republicansforkerry04.com. Many notable Republicans endorsed Kerry. Paper trail combined with open source code will work. Voter Confidence Act was supported by many Republicans in the House and it was going to pass. DeLay took it upon himself to kill the Act.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 2:36 pm PT...
A good attorney is a very, very busy attorney. Your overabundance of free time to constantly post just about everywhere on BradBlog inidicates how bad you must be at your profession.
>> Wouldn't they just program it to print a recipt
>>for one candidate and record another?
C'mon, Jimmy-boy, even you have more imagination than that.
The computer records the touch-screen selected vote, and prints out a corresponding ballot for the voter. The VOTE VERIFIES THE PRINTED BALLOT, and deposits it in a box.
After the election, the computer touchscreen software generates its results. Then, for every state, a number of randomly selected counties have their printout ballots hand-counted, and these hand-count results are compared to the computer software's results.
(1) In case of a discrepancy between the randomly chosen counties' handcounts and the computer results, a STATEWIDE handcount of the printout ballots is triggered.
(2) In case of a large enough discrepancy between the EXIT POLLS and the computer results (as with 2004), a STATEWIDE handcount of the printout ballots is triggered.
Understand the way that would work, Jimmy-boy?
>>Are you going to put people's names & >>addresses on these receipts because when they >>get tossed, then what?
Think a little, will you? Did you ever put your name or address on regular paper ballots??? Why does it have to be any different for print-out ballots?
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 2:38 pm PT...
Oops... the above, fourth paragraph should say: "THE VOTER VERIFIES THE PRINTED BALLOT"
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 2:42 pm PT...
Hi, everyone! I don't mind Atty Jimmo - keep your opponents close by, so you know what they are doing and can clearly see the chinks in their armour, and all that stuff.
Meanwhile, I believe the tide is turning. The problem with the Senate and Congress is that no important legislation gets done at all, or done right, such as the Electoral Reform we wanted after Florida. Unfortunately, too many of them are primarily interested in legislation that boosts their own power. In short, they have become self-serving, rather than serving the people.
However, we are at a point in history where the American people are just as smart, and just as capable as those in the Senate and Congress. We have millions of people who can draft electoral reform, and we have allies in the Congress and Senate who are prepared to work with the people. We must join forces with all our allies (such as www.thealliancefordemocracy.org), ignore any obstructionists, and get the job of electoral reform done ASAP.
By the way, it's amazing what information you may come across about the past elections, while you are actively trying to effect positive change for future elections. Criminals are never as smart as they think they are.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 2:46 pm PT...
Brad has already given the so-called attorney several warnings about the very things that he is still doing, and in my opinion if Brad decided to toss him out that would be a well-justified decision. If it were me, I would have done it a lot earlier.
It's not about censorship. It's about abuse. Commenting on somebody else's blog is a privelege, not a right. And jim is so prolific that he probably deserves his own blog anyway.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:03 pm PT...
There's one sure way to keep ATT Jimmo quiet, just talk about NEE and YANG and the Red Chinese gettiing missile technolocy from Feeny's friends NEE and YANG.
Ask ATT Jimmo if he's bothered that Nee only got a $100 fine and no jail sentence for endangering our troops?
Notice ATT Jim doesn't mess with me, 'cause I only write about NEE, and NEE is so much more important than anything else that's been reported here.
"We are the knights that say NEE, Pang and NEE Womp." From "Monty Python and The Holy Grail"
I challenge ATT Jim to a debate on the issue of NEE and Yang.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
Terri in S. FL
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Neither you nor any one who votes Republican should be telling us what proper voting procedures should be. You're party has made it quite clear that you believe that the ends justify the means, and the end must always be a Con "victory".
No matter what party line you tow, there is enough of a case to any thinking person that our election system in this county is serioulsy flawed, and whether that be the result of bad technology, fraud or human error, in a democracy, a flawed election system is just not acceptable.
We got a saying down here in the south: Don't piss on my leg and call it rain.
Everyday we use our ATM's and credit cards and all the vast array of modern technology and the result is accurate damn near all the time. Yet, you want me to accept and believe that we do not have the proper technology available to insure free and honest elections, that exit polls are suddenly flip flopping all over the place and that it's OK for some people to wait in line to vote for 10 hours in the rain while polling machines sit in a ware house.
However, this system has no chance of being corrected as long as the people who are in charge are the ones benifiting from this fiasco. And when I say those who are benefiting, I now have to say, from what we witnessted on January 6th, that the guilty seem to cross party lines. It would seem that even members of the current minority party have a vested interest in keeping things status quo. Why, what deals have been made, I can not say.
What I can say, and what has become painfully obvious is, that no one inside the beltway has any intention of allowing The People our voice. The time has come for us to declare our independence.
The Revolution starts NOW!
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:09 pm PT...
Response to comment #8
"Gibbs’ TruVote machine is a marvel. After voters touch the screen, a paper ballot prints out under plexiglass and once the voter compares it to his actual vote and approves it, the ballot drops into a lockbox and is issued a numbered receipt. The voter’s receipt allows the tracking of his particular vote to make sure that it was transferred from the polling place to the election tabulation center" ..."They can then go to a Web site, punch in their voter validation number and make sure their vote was recorded."
And Athan Gibbs died last March 2004 "when his vehicle collided with an 18-wheeled truck which rolled his Chevy Blazer several times and forced it over the highway retaining wall where it came to rest on its roof."
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:13 pm PT...
Hi, Atty Jimmo - I personnally do not believe that the majority of Republicans voted for, or support GWB. Anyway, the Bushites are not Republicans. There are other words to describe them. Jimmo, if you are truly a Republican, then one day you will find out you have been deceived, used, and your country seriously damaged by the Bushites. Then you too will join the Velvet Revolution.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:21 pm PT...
He dosn't debate or make sense because he is a kid, a crank . typing his fathers words and not his own, notice how he seldom deviates, notice he he does not understand big words or complex issues, same JFK crap over and over.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:27 pm PT...
I have already listed the importance of a dual tabulation system! So what I have recommended is much more than a paper receipt. I disagree with only doing a sampling of the paper ballots!
Under a dual tabulation system, all electronic ballots are counted through one independent body and all verified paper ballots are hand counted by a second independent body! If they don't conform, then there are grounds for recounts, challenges, and investigations!
I'm talking about an election system and process every American can have absolute confidence in! Nor will I buy into the argument that such a system is too cumbersome, time consuming, or expensive. We can waste billions of dollars on oil and gas wars, failed missile defense systems, and other crony weapons expenditures, yet not spend the investment we need to guarantee what is probably the most important democratic civil right...voting!
George DUMBYA Bush wants to bomb people into Democracy, but then steal that democracy through fraud and corruption! He is a war criminal and a phony...politically, economically, and religiously!
There are only two ways we as citizens directly impact our democracy, voting and jury duty. It should not be surprising that Republicans are attacking both of them. Attacking voting by voter suppression, intimidation, process exploitation, and machine manipulation. Jury duty by Tort Reform and other vehicles to limit the power of citizen jury decisions and verdicts. One attacked to maintain power, the other to maintain wealth.
WE DEMAND ELECTION REFORM NOW! WE DEMAND PERSONAL AND LEGAL ACCOUNTABILITY OF AN ILLEGITIMATE PRESIDENT! WE DEMAND A NEW ELECTION WITH A DUAL TABULATION SYSTEM! FINALLY, WE DEMAND AN IMMEDIATE TRANSITION TO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY AND CONSERVATION! (Okay...I demand!!!!
Since the Republicans have their voting machine companies tied to their aspirations of creating a Christian Dominion. Since they are on track to do just that by working to control everything from the White House and Congress to courts and school boards. Using election fraud and a CRAMPS Military Industrial Complex to protect gloabl natural resource exploitation and suppress dissent here at home, I suspect none of these demands will be met, let alone considered.
So they have the power. Let's see if they can hang on to it! And let's see if we can take it away! Viva La Revolucion!
PS: Tom Delay...what a joke! Christian Dominionists folks! Tommie boy, Georgie boy, and their Pentagon Generals. Great combo for our ongoing religious wars in the Middle East. Crusades and Jihads...what fun!
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:31 pm PT...
I would not have an ATM card that did not work within a system that leaves me a paper trail.
But that's only money.
Surely voting is at least as important as money.
As kahlyre points out, it does not take rocket science to have credible voting machines.
It only takes political honesty.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:45 pm PT...
A Revolution? Yes. It was once and is now, a revolution!
Lets take for instance, our Constitution and consider our potential as a governed people, by the people, at the time it was accepted. Imagine the hearts and hopes of our people then? Yes imagine! Despite the wonderful possibilities guaranteed by this document for it's people... Well, it is obvious we haven't accomplished enough. It is obvious that in many ways we have divorced this near perfect document and floundered in it's great potential through passivity and presumption. For we are now more victimized by our own constitutional form of government than at any time in our entire history.
But who can argue that our predominate vision for our country and it's people is not revolutionary? Who can argue that our ideals and goals for equality, justice, democracy and freedom are not revolutionary? Who can argue that what we have accomplished these last days and weeks is not revolutionary by accepted definitions of the word? Who can argue that what is required for survival and a future for us, is not a revolution? We ARE revolutionaries whether we want to accept that fact or not. All that remains is by what name.
We must contemplate revolution, the many difficulties that lie ahead and failures now behind us. We cannot ever control people, places or events so lets stay focused on what we can control. Lets stay focused on the individual things we can do, as individuals working toward common goals in shaping our future for our country.
We have made great progress because our vision is needed, correct and just. Our numbers are growing because others feel as passionate as we do for democracy. We have grown by one idea, by one action and by one individual at a time. We will continue to grow and succeed in the same manor. Yes, revolutionary.
Today we are revolutionaries in the Velvet Revolution. Tomorrow we will prevail. Forever we will preserve.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:47 pm PT...
I may draw some ire here, but I have to think that there's not much point in removing Atty Jim from this blog. He would just blog with a different name or from a different location anyway. I somewhat agree with Peggy's assertion that it's good to keep your enemies nearby, but I have to take issue with the idea that his posts provide any useful insight into Repug thinking. I am surprised however that he solicited input on how a machine paper-ballot might actually work. A momentary flash of inquisitiveness? I hesitate to think so...
I've come to the conclusion (as we all have) that Jimbo isn't much of a free-thinker--his knee-jerk regurgitations smack of a very shallow thought process. His "arguments" are based entirely upon blind defense of the Repugs with absolutely no consideration given to the FACTS. The cut-'n-hack job of DeLay's rant confirms this. It's typical of this genre of republican thinking (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one) and other forms of "faith-based" logic. Facts don't matter, and in fact can be a downright inconvenience. Towing the line does. The impression of strength and righteousness comes in the faux-comfort of considering oneself as part of a group, and it is self-confirming.
I've met many like Jimbo. They never cease to both amaze and repulse me. Their world revolves almost exclusively around the self; they lack the ability to easily empathize with others, unless (once again) doing so promises to have a direct benefit to their underdeveloped ego.
I find it both sad and bizarre that there are so many who are so weak and gullible as to prefer the easy comfort of self-congratulatory dogma over the (what must be terrifying ) uncertainty of free and rational thought.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 3:51 pm PT...
To: kahylre comment #17
That's the voting system I've been talking about! Thanks for that info tidbit!
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 4:07 pm PT...
Lol! I certainly don't figure George is secretly a hacker! But I would be very surprised indeed if Karl did not have a few in the Palm of his hand.
The way I see it, Jan. 6 was our Lexington and Concord. There were two lanterns in the window of the church steeple, by the names of Tubbs and Boxer.
I'm starting two petition drives. One is to impeach Bush. The other is for a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to vote.
Every generation is a Greatest Generation. It's our turn.
For us and for future generations.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 4:29 pm PT...
YANG? FEENEY? NEE? NAH... In a democracy jimmo survives because, lets face it, we tolerate our enemies so that we better understand them. Further, those that cannot think for themselves must be provided for. We are a caring people when it comes to the welfare of the less endowed.
Here on BRAD BLOG, we the people are empowered by facts, expanded thinking, enlightening discussion and bold action. Except for our lip-syncing subservient jimmo who seems to be an empowerment of David Drier ;-\
Do we keep him on the welfare rolls as pet jimmo or dump him back to the dominionists where he'll certainly be further diminished? Your call Brad, disruptive pet jimmo or diminished dominionist jimmo?
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 4:36 pm PT...
Excuse my ignorance, I'm Canadian. But I was just wondering what is wrong with paper and pencil? Works fine up here.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 4:46 pm PT...
Many topics so little time!
I was able to use advanced technology to skim right past any post from a-jim and any response to a-jim. While I don't believe in censorship atall, and I know groupthink is bad, I do believe in constructive criticism. That't not happening. After a-jims haha we won statement in response to our ENORMOUS VICTORY yesterday, I'm afraid I must pass. My perogative. (If I missed anyone's comment it's because it had "Jim" in it, sorry, forgive.)
I have what are some important questions to me that maybe somebody can answer (while we're getting ready for the mission statement:)
1) We know our individual vote doesn't count. How is it that the electors (whose vote does count) get selected? How do they decide for whom to cast their vote? Let me qualify this question by admitting that I snoozed through any pertinent classes that would have taught me this. (Though graduated college summa cum laude from the honors program in a different area.)
2) Speaking of school, is this class of Republicans - this intolerant egotisticical attitude thing - the first graduating class from some particular type of private or public school system? I REALLY want to know! Partially because I have a son with an IQ in 99%tile who is in public school. I know they are trying to create the "yes men" now but were they back then? What kind of early schools did these guys go to? Were they the only listeners while I was off on thinking missions? Don't these Republicans strike you as...slightly robotic?
3) For the vote reformists: I want my name and address and phone number on my ballot in case those who are counting have any questions.
Ya know, I wanted to move to another country if Bush was re-de-elected. But because I have 2 7th great grandfathers who fought in the American Revolution, I will NEVER give up on this country.
In the famous words of Mr. Willoughby, "something must go!"
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 4:57 pm PT...
Cheryl re: paper and pencil
Our government has fatal plans for our educational system. In fact, the entire literate middle class will be eliminated per bushcon policy. The idea that a person could simply write in their choice for officials in elections is well... Someone would have to provide assistance for pet jimmo and friend Drier at a minimum. Perhaps a "cheat sheet" properly spelled and posted inconspicuously in the precinct as Triad condones?
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:00 pm PT...
Please, please visit blackboxvoting.org and read today's message. Then visit breakthelink.org. You will find it very interesting.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:15 pm PT...
I'm going to inject a somewhat sinister speculation into this forum by reminding everyone that wonderful blogs such as this ARE vulnerable to surveillance and hacking. We are so accustomed to taking "freedom of speech" in this country for granted that we are apt to forget that people are even now being persecuted in this country for activity discovered through illegal wire-taps and bugging. I think shutting down unlimited liberty on the 'net may well be next.
If and when that logical next step is taken in stripping us of our liberties, we'll no longer be able to discuss and organize efficiently. We'll no longer be able to "meet" and "visit with" each other. We won't even have the consolation of knowing that other people who think as we do exist out there.
My point in stating this is that we MUST take advantage of every moment we have left. A little like living each day as if it were our last - and maybe even just as drastic.
I'm not a pessimist, but things are getting pretty ugly in this country and some realistic projections can serve to put us on high alert.
Miss Persistent: I agree that reform must come from within. I too have Revolutionary generals in my tree, but that isn't my reason for sticking it out here rather than moving to Canada. I'm staying as long as I can stand it because NONE OF THIS IS FAIR, NONE OF WHAT IS BEING DONE HAS OUR PERMISSION OR APPROVAL; AND YET IT IS BEING DONE IN OUR NAME! That has to change...
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:22 pm PT...
Cheryl comment #27:
Hi Cheryl. The problem with paper and pencil is that they do not make mountains of money for any large corporations. The way it is done in America is the way that makes the rich richer the richest is the way we do it. I would prefer paper and pencil myself. It would be hard to get our government to give up on expensive machines though because our government is controlled by corporations. Since we have a tough job already just getting a fair election, maybe we are not even thinking about trying to get rid of the machines, but just make them fair. Even fill-in-the-dot with a pencil type ballots are not safe, because the counting is done with a tabulator (a computer). Is that what you use? Or do you hand count everything?
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:22 pm PT...
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:23 pm PT...
Oooh, oooh, I forgot one of my other questions: why are the adult children of that "majority" who voted for Bush not clamoring toward the enlistment lines?
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:31 pm PT...
Thanks for the heads-up, Peggy. That's a great site and an idea whose time has come.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:42 pm PT...
Electionfraudbounty.org is collecting $1 billion to be paid in part to the first person to come forward with evidence leading to conviction of those responsible for the election fraud, which was conducted throughout the U.S., and probably involved a fair number of people. They have a rational and scientific basis to conclude that fraud occurred. They also warn that person that their life is probably in danger. I wonder if any of them would be allowed to live after the election was over anyway. New hacker recruits can be found prior to the next important election.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:50 pm PT...
The wealthy start wars...they don't fight them, unless they're looking for a hero complex or political future. Except poor George DUMBYA, who took a pass on Vietnam service along with all those other wealthy Texas kids! Ironically, they considered Vietnam a "DEMOCRAT" war they sought to avoid...and many of them did. Had all those poor kids drafted to do that while they played cards and guzzled booze. Yeah...you know I'm right George and Karl and Dick, you war mongers and draft dodgers!
By the way everyone, if you read my comments about our other dirty little war in Colombia that I made 6-7 days ago, concerning the extradition of FARC leader Ricardo Palmero, and if you're interested in a great article about the US and private American contractors/agendas in Colombia, please go read:
"Colombia's Privatized Conflict" by Hernando Calvo at www.zmag.org from December 30, 2004
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:50 pm PT...
Oh cripes. Thanks Torqued. I can't barely read this.
Here's a quote from a Jimmy Carter article that pretty much explains it all:
The Christian Right Isn't Christian
"There is an element of fundamentalism involved, which involves the belief on the part of a human being that [his or her] own concept of God is the proper one. And since [he or she has] the proper concept of God, [he or she is] particularly blessed and singled out for special consideration above and beyond those who disagree with [him or her].
Secondly, anyone who does disagree with [him or her], since [he or she is] harnessed to God in a unique way, then, by definition, must be wrong. And the second step is if you are in disagreement with [his or her] concept of the way to worship, even among the Christian community, is that you are inferior to [him or her]. And then the ultimate progression of that is that you’re not only different and wrong and inferior but in some ways you are subhuman. So there’s a loss of concern even for the death of those who disagree."
Sweet Jesus. The Republican/Christian Right religious beliefs are this? and the same as Osama bin Laden's? the Saudi's?
We are infidels?
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 5:57 pm PT...
Good one! If we can rely on what Wayne Madsen was saying about Five Star Trust and how a Saudi/Texas group funded the election fraud for Bush. Then the people who perpetrated the fraud were brought in from outside the country and disappeared right after the election. This way, no Americans to come forward to spill the beans. Makes sense! Maybe they've already went the way of Lee Harvey Oswald or back to work for the intelligence agency of their respective countries?
But don't worry...the Republican Congress, Justice Department, and FBI are on their trail! LOL
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:02 pm PT...
Yes Miss P,
WELCOME TO CHRISTIAN DOMINIONISM!
And guess what, Pat Robertson has them running for school board seats and public office all over America! With explicit instructions..."conceal your Christian Dominion agenda until elected" (paraphrased)!
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:12 pm PT...
Jenny (comment #32)
I am a paid campaign organiser and have worked on many elections in Canada; civic, provincial and federal, and as far as I'm aware, we hand count everything including "absentee" and "advance" ballots. Every riding is divided into polls (according to population) with a Returning Officer in charge overall and poll clerks in charge of each poll. Every candidate is entitled to have a "scrutineer" that sits behind the poll clerk in each poll while voters sign in and receive their ballots. The voter number is called out to the scrutineers who cross it off a numbered list and send it back to their respective campaign offices so that the identified supporters can be tracked to make sure they actually vote. The poll clerks conduct the actual count, with the scrutineers present. If there are any objections they are noted and if necessary, acted upon after the count. The guidelines used here are that if the intent of the voter is clear it doesn't matter if they use an X, an check mark or a smiley face. Otherwise, the ballot is accepted. Seems to work pretty well. We don't have a whole lot of contested elections.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:15 pm PT...
Hi, Freebird: Well, the Repub. majority Supreme Court is corrupt, and the top eschelon's of the law enforcement system may also be corrupt. But, it is unlikely that ALL of law enforcement can be bought off. So I hope the good guys in law enforcement are high in number, well organized, thorough and fast. We need to stop the Bushites NOW and they need to do serious jailtime.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:17 pm PT...
But Freebird, this country I thought was founded for the purpose of religious freedom...Or did I snooze through that too while in some dream?
Manoman. Extremism/Dom-ism like that is a mental illness. Identity Foreclosure. I didn't know it was this bad.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:20 pm PT...
Cheryl (Comment 41),
I live in a very small New England town that does things exactly as you have described. It works, too.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:31 pm PT...
attaboyJimbo's trolling has been childish and annoying, but he/she has accidentally(?) contributed one of the most constructive comments yet (BTW, brilliant work with your blog, Brad).
atty jimmo said on 1/7/2005 @ 1:58pm PT...
"Please explain to me how a "paper trail" is going to prevent software fraud of an election? Wouldn't they just program it to print a recipt for one candidate and record another?
Are you going to put people's names & addresses on these receipts because when they get tossed, then what? So everybody in the country will know how any poor sap that just chucks it in the street voted?
What about peole that will bring this receipt to parties willing to "reward them" for voting their way with cash and the receipt is the evidence they pay from.
Exactly WHAT good are "paper receipts" other than to keep the paper manufacturers busy? Think about it BECAUSE it DOES not MAKE sense"
Watching from the sidelines in Australia, the US voting system is very.very.scary indeed, 'unbelievable' would be close to the mark.
The vast majority of well-meaning solutions out there on the web are, in my view, completely inadequate as computers are still involved at the individual vote-casting/vote-counting stage. One of the few investigators on the web to suggest a practical, secure voting system for the future is Lynn Landes at www.ecotalk.org. It's worth checking out her other articles on the same website.
She is open to researching other countries' voting systems and doesn't have a 'must be high-tech because we are Americans' mindset (apologies for that dig,... we foreigners get frustrated because 'we catch a cold when America sneezes'). Her contributions to the debate cut through the self-contradictions of many others.
Serious option for consideration: FORGET THE COMPUTERS - use paper and pencils and count ballots BY HAND immediately after close of voting, locally at the precincts with observers present. No more queues (each precinct can provide more than 3 pencils for 1500 voters), plus a genuine paper trail if a recount is requested. The computers only kick in when collating the count totals submitted by each precinct (which are in the public domain).
The system I describe above is basically the one we use in Australia, which is far from perfect, but it actually works well enough. Yes, our system is being steadily white-anted, but the PTB (Powers That Be) haven't yet succeeded in destroying it. That will probably occur if we change over to computer voting machines... the Australian Electoral Commission isn't as fearless and independent as it once was.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 6:52 pm PT...
I agree with the last few comments about using pencil and paper to vote. Forget buying more expensive machines for now. Not necessary.
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 7:00 pm PT...
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 7:02 pm PT...
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 7:11 pm PT...
So nice that real news is being discussed here. On Scarborough Country the news of the day is "Did God's anger cause the Tsunami".
I tend to think it was a collision of tectonic plates.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 7:57 pm PT...
Thanks for the heads-up on the cannonfire link. I encourage everyone to read it...looks like Mr. Khashoggi and Triad have been up to no good in Ohio this time. Also, I second Peggy's suggestion that we check-out the new info. at Blackboxvoting.org. Once you're there click on the breakthelink.org link and then be sure and click on "Living under Fascism". I cried while reading the entire article, my key board is soaked and I'm a Canadian living in the U.S.!!!...
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 8:09 pm PT...
I am in awe of you guys. Thanks for the links & ideas to build on. However, I gotta admit that my favorite from this thread has gotta be "don't piss on my leg & call it rain". Whoever said that, please run for office. We need another Sam Ervin.
Peace, brothers & sisters.
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 9:12 pm PT...
Yang, Nee, China arms deals, offshore Saudi trusts, gold and jewels, oil & gas, CIA, 9/11, votergate, NBC, Iraq, incidental deaths, Bush, Reagan, Dumbya.......... James A. Baker III.
Thats why you are here right? Tell us more about the James A. Baker III connections please? Expound about the shenanigans going on at 30 Rockefeller Plaza?
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 9:12 pm PT...
Wow! I've read some of Hopsicker's stuff before and I have to say, this is quite believeable in light of the sort of corruption we say surrounrding us today. It would be nice to see this verified instead of just rumored, but we know the mainstream won't even touch Ohio, let alone a story like this. Great find, Peg!
To the poster who was concerned about internet privacy: you should assume you don't have any. But also check out the electronic frontier foundation's project called Tor - at http://eff.org - they make no guarantees and neither do I, but it might make you feel better.
atty jimbo is hilarious, is he a charicature???
Finally to BRAD - I've been following your blog for awhile, and I have to say THANKS!!
I sent KOlbermann, your favorite hack, a hot email the other day that he doesn't seem to be able to get back to. Maybe you can take up the issue for me, Brad? He seems to respond to (but not credit) you.
The issue I was trying to get some response on was that Olbermann hasn't touched the fact that the National Election Pool companies (one of which is related to his employer) won't turn over the raw exit poll data as requested by John Conyers here:
Also, it would be nice if he would confirm or deny the adjusted exit poll data here.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 9:19 pm PT...
SeattleDem and Joan,
I'm a "Canadian" living in the U.S. also; I have close family there and my heart keeps yearning thitherwards.
A sense of humor is absolutely vital to sanity. I agree. And I'm very fond of you all.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 9:32 pm PT...
galilei - that voice of doom was me. Thanks for the Electronic Freedom site.
Peace (and justice)
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 9:43 pm PT...
Wow, I've been living here for 37 years and all of my family is here. My father (big time Repub.) moved us here because it was the land of low taxes (O'Rielly is his god!) I've lived close to the Canadian border all these years and when I became pregnant with my first child I decided that just to be on the safe side I would have my baby in Canada. You know just in case some day we had leadership again that was insane enough to get involved in another crazy war. Vietnam had ended 6 years prior. My son is now 21 and I Thank God I had the forsight to have him in Canada...
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 9:52 pm PT...
James A. Baker III is an attorney as well. Do you two have anything in common? Please tell me about the money network as it seems to involve so many interesting men and deeds around the world. The money jimmo, that is the key issue we should talk about after James A. Baker III. I promise I won't tell a soul jimmo.
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:03 pm PT...
LOL all! Love to see you all commenting and spitting fire!! ) Looks like Brad's Blog is really lighting up!
Joan: I remember that one from Clint Eastwood's, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES, when one of the actors says, "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'!" My favorite line in the movie! LOL
Peggy: I'll always believe there are good law enforcement personnel, judges, lawyers, and even politicians! I know a "few"! Otherwise, I'd already have my guns drawn! LOL
Miss P: I'll always believe in Freedom of Religion, but that means all religions and not a state one! They want a theocracy of Christian Domination and if you look and listen hard enough, especially to people like Tom Delay or Rick Santorum, I can see them dreaming of their little brown shirt uniformed young men scouring the countryside to round up gays, lesbians, abortion providers, gamblers, drinkers...LOL...the list goes on! LADIES...GET OUT YOUR BURKAS!
Seriously though, Nazi Germany went through the same transformation in a realtively short time. It would be difficult to replicate that in this age of modern communication. Although one has to wonder as the MEDIA is gobbled up into fewer and fewer hands, and even the Internet is targeted for "consolidation" and "control"! No Joking!
Anyway, I've already listed elsewhere the scary correlations. As a Catholic myself, I am all too well aware of how the Church and other right-wing Christian religions either supported or were exploited by Hitler. Even though the Founding Fathers used the word GOD many times, they did so in a generic sense that would not otherwise divide the nation religiously. They were very much secularists, having themselves been the recent descendants of all the horrific religious wars of Europe. Please read the FEDERALIST PAPERS when you get a chance!
Although, if you listen to Pat Robertson & Company, his propaganda media will tell you the Founding Fathers created a country to be dominated by Christianity and that Freedom of Religion does not prohibit the Christian religion from controlling the State...the government! He makes it sound as though the commies, ACLU Jews, or whoever else he's hating that day, want GOD out of our lives and country. When secularists, which include many religious leaders, simply want a separation of church and state as originally envisioned. Hell, Pat Robertson even hates Protestants and Methodists! Go figure?
The hatred, prejudice, division, and violence that spews from many of the right-wing Christian Dominionists and their kind is exactly the kind of religious strife the Founding Fathers hoped to avoid in the new America! The romantic history of America is that our early American ancestors came to these shores to escape religious persecution. Which in some cases was true, but they also came to dish out their own persecution! AYE! BURN THAT WITCH!! AYE! TORCH THAT EVIL HOUSE! You know, the type of religious freedom they want to bring back to America! YESSSSSSSSS! THE GOOD OL' DAYS! LOL
Speaking of fascism folks, I don't know how many of you are into foreign films? (NOT ALL GREAT MOVIES ARE MADE IN AMERICA YOU KNOW!) Well you should be! Here's a recent release you should go rent if you'd like:
FACING WINDOWS (Winner of 5 David di Donatello Awards including Best Picture)! It's Italian with English subtitles and worth every cheap penny you pay for it! I was raised in an Italian family so I am a little partial. Has a mild sexual scene and some choice words, but otherwise relatively clean.
Because we've been talking about fascism and all, this has a great romantic story that touches on it, yet is really enjoyable in its twist and turns and music score. Won't give it away, but one line near the end of the movie was relevant to our anger and frustration of today's politics, "We musn't just dream of a better world...we must demand it!" SEE IT!
Which brings me to my final thought. I know how we can get consumed by the events unfolding before us. It can even become an obsession! Yet, somehow we must move forward with a sense of purpose that has both balance and honor in all that we say and do, just as Mother Nature intended for all things! Even though I myself might violate my own rule now and then! Great Night!
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:05 pm PT...
Damn, I should have gone to bed long ago, but you people are a bad influence!
You know, are we assuming the elected officials we write to are familiar with the likes of the brad blog, cannonfire, truthout, online journal, blackbox voting
etc? I mean, they are ( supposedly) pretty busy (making laws, taking bribes); just because it's available doesn't mean they know of it. If their usual sources are the mainstream media, limbaugh, o'reilly & the like, they are just as disinformed as their constituents. Maybe if alot of us sent them these links with our emails & letters, it would help educate them (and forgive me if alot of you have been doing this for ages & it's only just dawning on my sorry ass)
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:06 pm PT...
Just in case the hair on the back of your neck isn't erect enough, go to American Free Press (sorry, I can't get you a link because their site is so busy). Anyway, read the story about the Oklahoma Federal Building bombing. I promise you won't like it.
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:13 pm PT...
Bingo! Atty. Jim has basically spoken the mind of Feeney and his gang. Why paper trail?
Folks, we should fight for a unified voting machine with audit trail and paper hard copy. The voting machine companies in order to bid needs to disclose the source codes as that cannot hide them under "proprietery secret" veil. Congress needs to set these standards. And just like the ATM receipts we need to have voter receipts. If we can pay for the voter registration paper cost and absentee ballot ballot paper cost, we surely can pay another 2 cents for paper receipts.
The Republicans are simply scared of this. The red votes are spreading like virus because the voting machines are hacker friendly. This needs to be done and implemented prior to 2006 elections. We will soon see the power of blue coming back under fair voting standards.
The Republicans are simply paranoid about having a federal standardized voting machines with paper trail. We should practice (fair voting process) before we preach (democracy in middle east).
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:15 pm PT...
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:21 pm PT...
Haha! Thanks, I didn't know that quote was from a Clint Eastwood movie. Doesn't it make a good rejoinder for the typically distorted response we got from the Repugnantkins to the POSSIBILITY that our vote was compromised & that it might be a good idea to look into it?
Repubs, "Don't piss down my leg & call it rain", ok?
It might have helped a bit, though, if a SINGLE Democrat had alluded to that POSSIBILITY, instead of focusing on long lines & rain.
Goodnight, all you "God-hating, America-hating, troops-hating conspiracy-theorists"! Proud to be one of you.
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 10:41 pm PT...
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
said on 1/7/2005 @ 11:08 pm PT...
Goodnight. Sweet dreams. And HOPE.
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 1:08 am PT...
Yep, agreed winter patriot. Jesse Jackson has been asking for the same thing: eliminating the electoral college.
Elections would be decided by majority of the popular vote. I like the idea, particularly if I lived in a red state and voted otherwise. I would KNOW my vote truly helped my candidate and so would be more interested in the voting process right from the gitgo. I think this fact would increase voter turnout considerably but of course the repugs hate that possibility. If we want every vote to count and every vote counted who could argue the popular vote shouldn't be implemented?
As for primaries ditto. I think one of the arguments for an amendment to our constitution could make this happen quite easily. The right of every citizen to vote does not currently exist. The amendment would provide a constitutional RIGHT to vote with protections to insure that right. Since the right to vote is a states law issue currently, an amendment would standardize the election process by being a centralized function of federal government. Which begs the question of why do we need the EV college if elections are no longer implemented by the states?
What say you?
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 2:38 am PT...
Where can I get a bumper sticker that reads:
CHENEY BUSH (or BULLSH, perhaps)
as in "Go Cheney yourself"
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 5:50 am PT...
Wow Brad, when do I get my next check for keeping up the interest on your web site?
Let's all remember that Canada and Australia have far fewer people than America does during election and a lot more complainers that will complain about ANYTHING if they lose! So whatever works in small countries may not work here.
Re: paper ballots dropping into a "lockbox" after the vote. Ok, so we do this, your party loses anyway: In 2 minutes I want you to come up with 5 ways you could say the other side cheated despite this. Because NOTHING is foolproof, especially to losers that are CONSPIRACY theorists!
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 7:02 am PT...
Peggy RE: comment #36
I like the idea that a bounty for whistleblowing advances, HOWEVER, there are not enough controls on that site to protect the donations.
It must be put in trust with a trustee who has no ties to the site before I trust it.
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 7:19 am PT...
Peggy C comment #62
The problem with the article is that it offers no evidence via documentation. It is only opinion testimony with a lot of names, congressional hearings, and the like mentioned
I do not accept any theory, whether conspiracy or otherwise, without a minimum of probable cause engendered by some evidence. Such as an affidavit under oath.
At that point it is just a theory. Then there must be more and credible evidence for it to move beyond probable cause into a prima facia case.
To prevail beyond that prima facia case it must stand up to "cross examination". That is, constructive and other critism.
Then it becomes reasonably plausible.
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 7:28 am PT...
Atty Jimmo, these leftist socialist bloggers prove an old 1991 saying - "Communism didn't fall, it just moved to America."
All of this "Viva la Revolution" sounds like Castro speaking or any other Communist dictator.
And these leftist bloggers probably hated Reagan for what he did in South America. I work with a guy who was born in Maine but he lived for many years in Costa Rico. He loves Reagan because Reagan stopped Communism in South America.
Reagan's war on the Communist in Grenada also stopped it there.
Yet, "war is bad" according to the kook left fringe.
Can you imagine what these kook left fringe would be saying in 1812 and afterwards? This is a bad war here according to the kook left fringe:
"January 1815 - Battle of New Orleans. Andrew Jackson scores a huge victory and paves the way to the White House. 700 British are killed, 1400 are wounded. The US only loses 8 soldiers."
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 8:37 am PT...
There's a ton of fiction in some of the comments above.
For instance, the paper-ballot system used in Australia and Canada works fine in the big cities; there's no reason why it wouldn't work in big American cities too. USA would have more precincts than Canada or Australia but at the precinct level the logistical problems are more or less identical, that is to say: totally workable. In USA, we would have to add bigger columns of numbers to derive the grand totals from the precinct totals, but that's no big deal. It could be done with computers, running off-the-shelf software that anyone could use to verify the results. Using secret software for public processes is asking for trouble.
There's quite a bit of revisionist history going on too. It is widely [but wrongly] believed that USA had only two options in Central America: fight the communists or let them take over. In fact there were other possibilities. Two good examples are Cuba and Nicaragua. In both cases popular revolutions overthrew longstanding tyrannical dictatorships. In both cases the new governments came to USA looking for some help. Their countries had been ravaged by the wars, and they wanted to create stable democracies. But for one corporate reason or another, USA had no interest in seeing democracies in Central America, so the USA governments told the victorious revolutionaries to look elsewhere for help. They turned to the only other sources available to them, our propaganda machines branded them as communists, and then we started trying to overthrow them.
Strangely enough, the same sort of thing happened in Vietnam, by the way. That war was totally unnecessary. Vietnamese nationalists had been throwing out invading armies for a thousand years before USA got involved there. And we used the Vietnamese to help evict the Japanese. Once that was accomplished, the Vietnamese wanted to evict the French as well, and form their own democracy. Recall that FDR had been proclaiming that when WWII was over, America would support 'self-determination' for people of all nationalities. But by the time the war was over, FDR was dead and Truman was the president. He liked the idea of keeping Vietnam as a French colony, so he betrayed the Vietnamese nationalists. And for the next decade or so, France fought to keep Vietnam as a colony. American taxpayers paid for the war, French soldiers died for it. And when the French had finally seen how futile their effort was, they left. And then USA started paying in blood as well as money.
None of this --- the real history of the war in Vietnam --- is well known in America, of course. [The US government likes to keep its people ignorant concerning its foreign adventures. We are a decent peace-loving people, for the most part, and if we all knew what was done in our name overseas we would be livid!] But it's all well documented, in the Pentagon Papers and elsewhere. For those who are interested in learning more, I recommend an excellent book and/or DVD set by Michael Maclear called "Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War".
Back to Central America for a minute: USA secretly organized right-wing death squads that killed at least 75 thousand people in El Salvador. This happened because El Salvador had democratically elected a government which wanted to help its poorest people. This would have been very inconvenient for the American-based multinational companies who were taking whatever they wanted [primarily coffee and bananas] from El Salvador and leaving nothing behind. So according to the corporate interests that control American foreign policy, that Salvadoran government had to be overthrown and its supporters had to be murdered.
During the most recent vice-presidential debate, Dick Cheney had the nerve to refer to this episode as an example of how America brought 'democracy' to a foreign country. In the face of this outright lie, we heard not a peep from John Edwards. How pathetic!
The truth is that America has a very long history of talking about how it wants to see democracy elsewhere in the world, but when other countries elect democratic governments who don't want to kowtow to the big corporations, our government brands them 'communists' and overthrows them. Sometimes the overthrow results in horrendous loss of life, other times it's accomplished relatively peacefully. But the result is always more poverty and oppression for the common people and more profits and freedom for the big corporations. And then our so-called leaders have the nerve to brag about it as if they had done something wonderful.
Well it's not wonderful --- it's despicable. Our government's rhetoric and its actions are always very different. The bulk of the American people have bought the rhetoric and never learned anything about the actions. At least so far. But this is changing, and the truth is coming out, and as you can see, this simple fact makes some people very angry.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 9:37 am PT...
Re: comment # 66 - Winter Patriot asks a very pertinent question here.
A brief history lesson:
The electoral college was developed as (and is a relic of) a compromise between the industrialized North and the pro-slavery South to ratify the constitution before the Civil War. The South, understanding that their miniscule populations (of whites) would never provide sufficient votes (suffrage) to compete with the large populations of the industrialized North. Fearing under-representation in the new government, the South demanded that it's many thousands of slaves be counted as a person in determining the number of representatives and electoral votes accorded to each state. The North refused. A compromise was ultimately reached that famously counted each slave as 3/5 of a person in determining representatives and electors for president (although slaves were of course not allowed to vote). Thus the slaveholders (who actually were allowed to vote) in the slave states enjoyed disproportionate representation in the new government.
The Electoral College heavily favors small states, because every state, no matter how sparsely populated, gets three automatic electors, one for each Senator and a House Member. This means that states that by population might be entitled to only one or two electoral votes wind up with three four or five electors. The voter in such a state with few voters has more voting effectiveness, more voting power, and more governmental power than a voter in a state with millions of voters.
Perversely, the more slaves any other slave state bought or bred, the more electoral votes it would receive. Were a slave state to free any blacks who then moved North, the state could actually lose electoral votes. Not Good! Virginia benefited the most from this arrangement early on: For 32 of the Constitution's first 36 years, a white slaveholding Virginian occupied the Presidency (including Thomas Jefferson--who's victory over John Adams was the direct result of this disproportianate counting of electoral voters).
In short, the electoral college to this day is designed and very effective at giving the minority (the southern states) a great deal more power and influence than they deserve.
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 9:37 am PT...
jaime comment #49
God hates america is a neo-con religionist site that says the Tsunami is punishment.
It seems to me that hate made that site forget the proper neo-con "love america or leave it" rhetoric to use.
They now sound more like the jihadists bombers they say they hold in disdain.
At first they had the correct white house approved neo-con rhetoric when they hated sweden and hated "fags".
But now it seems they have lost touch with the way to hate like a good neo-con is supposed to hate.
Perhaps, as suspicion directs me, it was a freudian slip which shows the true colors of the neo-con religionists?
They hate period?
No comment on the shrimp haters.
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 9:53 am PT...
skinny comment #74
Our concern here is the presidential election (1/3 of government).
So when we advocate a constitutional amendment that guarantees the individual the right to vote for president, we are only advocating a minimal effect on the total government (33% effect, leaving 66% untouched).
Since slavery is now gone and is now illegal the underlying reasoning is also gone.
Our movement, then, is quite reasonable, because we are not advocating upsetting the way congress is voted in and out.
Except that we want the individual right to vote amendment to also apply to them.
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 10:06 am PT...
Winter Patriot: I am interested in reading the book on Vietnam. I do not remember ever studying that War in school and know nothing about it. I have heard bits and pieces about corrupt actions of our government like your story about El Salvador. I would like to read more about El Salvador and other things like that that our govt has done. Any book suggestions? I have read some things on the power of corporations and believe that they have so much power and that they do control the world. Are you generally optimistic that we can overthrow that kind of power? The stealing of our vote is just one piece of a bigger picture of corporate world takeover. I want to feel more optimistic and look for optimism in others. But I do not feel it yet.
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 11:22 am PT...
Dredd comment # 76
Thanks for your comment.
I agree completely that a constitutional amendment calling for the abolishment of the electoral college is a reasonable movement considering (arguably if you still benefit from it) the irrelevance today of its original intent.
Despite the obvious reasons to do so, there is (and always will be) a great deal of resistance from those who directly benefit from the un-equal distribution of power and influence, which allows them to unfairly resist such a change. They will not easily relinquish such an important advantage, which is why such a move will have to come directly from the people (ie - the true majority) as others in this forum have been calling for.
Also, it's important to note that the executive is responsible for the appointment of a good portion of the judiciary. I think it's safe to say that the executive branch is in possession of a great deal more than a simple third of the distribution of government power--especially with the fourth institution of government (the media) firmly in the pocket.
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 11:30 am PT...
To Jean and Winter Patriot,
Good comments and questions about our role in Vietnam and Latin America. Jean, go to www.zmag.org and read "Colombia's Privatized War" from December 30, 2004. Great article on US intervention and motives in that dirty little war!
Bottom line is this!
Our right-wing government in America today is a product of right-wing controlled corporate America! I will go as far as saying that both the Democratic and Republican Party's are part of that right-wing government! The Democratic Party has become public window dressing for a phony opposition! They take Military Industrial Complex, multinational corporate, and energy industry pay offs just as much as the Republicans. Other than the great social divide, they are corporate whores just like the Republicans. Wall Street loved Bill Clinton and George Bush both!
The coup in Haiti was orchestrated by the Bush administration to overthrow a democratically elected left-wing government. The attempted coup and riots in Venezuela were backed by the Bush administration to overthrow a left-wing government. The assasination of Salvador Allende was orchestrated by the Nixon Administration to overthrow a democratically elected left-wing government. I still can't believe Henry Kissinger is a free man!
Wherever popular revolutions or elections result in the overthrow of right-wing regimes, they are the result of the poor versus the corrupt wealthy, the social liberators versus the political tyrants. So it is no small wonder that the corrupt wealthy and political tyrants of America support their right-wing brethren in the protection of their own business and geopolitical interests. No matter how ruthless those tyrants are!
When George DUMBYA Bush declares he's going to spread democracies around the world, he's talking about corrupt right-wing democracies just like we have in America! He's not talking about left-wing democracies that may oppose the anti-labor, anti-environment, anti-economic justice actions of a corporate America and capitalist financial markets.
Is the Bush administration happy about the ORANGE REVOLUTION in Ukraine? You bet! Dig under the surface and see what oil and gas billionaires and financiers were backing the opposition. They got their man! Now its time for all the dirty wheeling and dealing under the table as the great oil and gas market con game continues throughout the world!
Democracy itself has become the sham! It's more than just about elections. We need a whole new system that once and for all stops the right-wing march to destroy our global environment, suppress labor, civil, and human rights, and continues to exploit the human and natural resources of the world through war and corruption!
And if you really want to get pissed! Read how the Chinese have invaded Latin America to buy up all their natural resources. The Amazon Rain Forest is being torched so that farmers can grow food and feed for China's billions, who then use their slave waged masses to make the garbage we buy at Walmart. When you see your next freight train passing by, notice all the truck trailers just shipped from China. Corporate globalization is the goal and corrupting all governments is the strategy.
In the great corporate Darwinism, America's manufacturing base was deliberately destroyed to break the back of labor unions and their left-wing ilk that led to liberal Democratic victories. Your jobs have been shipped to Mexico, India, China and beyond for pennies on the dollar. In the process they began buying the media to make sure you understood that everything is peachy keen, and when the shit hits the fan...don't worry...Pat Robertson and GOD will be there to save you!
Pretty bleak eh? Well, I'm not pessimistic, I'm angry like plenty of other people. That anger will soon coalesce into an energy of mass consciousness that will lead to either compulsory reform or outright revolution. Every now and then the Earth erupts through volcanoes and earthqaukes to let off some steam. People and societies are no different! Viva la Revolucion!
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 11:39 am PT...
Jean post # 77.
One of the best ways to get perspective on the effects of US policy in Central/South America is to take a university class taught by someone from Panama or Guatemala. Even if it's a Spanish language class. The perspective gained is invaluable. Once you can read Spanish (or any other language for that matter), a whole world of news and info opens up to you.
Otherwise, here's a few films to watch to get you started:
"Men with guns" - Gutemala
"Panama's Deception" - Panama
"Missing" - Chile
"El Salvador no se vende" - El Salvador
Finding these might take some looking--your best bet may in fact be a university library.
Here's a few recent articles to give you a little background on the School of the Americas. They start you on dogs to get you ready for the real job.
Prepare to be sickened.
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 11:42 am PT...
I am currently persuaded that a lot of the machinations going on are due to "peak oil".
Some sites that have good documentation are:
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 11:52 am PT...
One of the reasons an electoral college was created was to protect the minority from the majority. It was designed that way because that was a basic principle of the Founding Fathers. It wasn't just about slaves, but about the inherent principle that the minority of the population should be protected from the tyrany of the majority.
Of course, there can be tyranny by the minority! So you all are probably correct in the assumption that there needs to be a rethink of the entire system! As I've said before, let's not let historical or constitutional sentimentalism get in the way of changing our country and world for the better! Stay tuned!
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 12:13 pm PT...
Friends, while we are thinking and talking about how to give the electoral system some integrity, I would like to propose a few more questions to think about: while we are struggling to achieve the right for everyone to vote, and for all the votes to count, we should also be thinking about ways to give all the votes EQUAL VALUE. The current system prevents this basic fairness, in several different ways.
 PRIMARIES: Why should just a few states [those who hold their primary elections first] have so much influence over the selection of national candidates? Would it not be much better to have all primaries on the same day? Then all American voters, regardless of which state they live in, would have equal influence in choosing their party's candidate. Or, for that matter, does it make any sense to hold primaries on a state-by-state basis? Why shouldn't each party have a nationwide primary election in which it chooses its candidate? [Oh, I know the reasons why those with power prefer to have things this way --- it keeps them in power! But I am asking you: Does this make any sense? Isn't there a better way?]
 GENERAL ELECTIONS: Does the Electoral College make any sense to you? Does it make any sense to anyone? Is there any justification for a system in which a state which prefers one candidate over another by a slim margin should then cast ALL its electoral votes for the winner? And is there any justification for a system which values the votes of the people in different-sized states so differently?
For example, Wyoming has roughly half a million people, and 3 electoral votes. That's one EV per 167 thousand people. Meanwhile, Texas has roughly 22.1 million people and 34 electoral votes. That's one EV per 650 thousand people. In other words, the current system counts a vote from Wyoming almost 4 times as heavily as a vote from Texas. Why?
And it's not only about Texas and Wyoming. All the states with large populations are under-represented in the Electoral College. And these are the states that have the most people!
Furthermore, the current system requires the candidates to pay attention to so-called 'swing states', while ignoring the others. In the most recent campaign, we saw both candidates spending most of their time and money in nine or ten states while disregarding the rest.
Under the current system, if you want your vote to be as meaningful as possible, you should move to a small state that's 'too close to call'. Does this make any sense to you? Should we all move to Hawaii? Or would it make more sense to change the way we elect our President?
I'm not trying to confuse the issue on you The issue is confused enough already. But I do believe that if we want to create a truly democratic system then we need to be thinking about all these things.
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 12:24 pm PT...
Freebird has a valid point in the previous comment--The Electoral College was indeed created in part to address the the founding father's fear of "Tyranny of the Majority". In this respect, it wasn't all that bad of an idea at the time, as it respected a state's right to self-govern.
Regarless, the uneven distribution of those electoral votes (still in existence today) was a direct result of The Great Compromise of 1787 which allowed the Southern States to count part (three-fifths) of non-voting slaves as part of their "voting" population--giving them disproportionate power over the true majority.
It's all very interesting. I wish they taught it in school. One man one vote?
Nevertheless, The protections put in place to guard against the Tyranny of the Majority have in no small way given rise to the at-the-time unforseen problem of the "Tyranny of the Minority"!
BTW - Thank you Brad for providing such a fine venue for thoughtful (with the exception of Jimbo) debate.
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 2:12 pm PT...
Yes, thank you Brad. Your site helps this Canadian understand America better.
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 2:26 pm PT...
Freebird thanks for your reply. I am one of the newly awoken and have much to learn. I am one of the ones who awoke to a large degree with Moore's movie 9-11. I had done some reading before that about corporate power but never anything political. I just read an article posted out here in the comments somewhere about the Feds actually causing the OK bombing. Terrifying stuff. I have also heard about a theory that Feds also caused the 9-11 disaster but have not done any reading on that yet. Do you have an opinion on that? Recently I have also read a prediction that Feds will drop a nuclear bomb on one of our own cities in order to develop support for the draft and going to war with other nations. I wish I remembered where I read that. Have you read that? That is very scary too. These stories are the conspiracy theories that we are accused of speaking about all the time. I do not believe or disbelieve in any of this, because I just do not know the truth. I believe that it is most important to keep an open mind and think for yourself, spiritually also. I will not disregard these conspiracy theories just because they are "out there" and that does not make me less that a non-thinking repub.
Knowing the others more informed than myself can stay optimistic is encouraging for me. I have young kids. I worry about their future.
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 6:09 pm PT...
Jean: I'm sorry but at the moment I don't have more time to write about 9/11 in answer to your questions.
Perhaps you'd like to read a few pieces about it on my blog, just to get yourself started.
You can start with this essay and then if you want more, you can continue with this piece. And Serendipity is a great place to continue your research. Ask more questions here if you wish. I'll be back later.
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 9:28 pm PT...
In comment #86 I posted the wrong link. I meant to direct you to this essay. I apologize for the confusion.
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
said on 1/8/2005 @ 9:47 pm PT...
There are ons of great comments here and I wish I could respond to all the good ones. Special thanks to "skinny" for comment #80 and "Freebird" for #79. You guys are great! Keep up the good work. There's lots more to do!.
If you leave here tomorrow,
we would still remember you...
COMMENT #89 [Permalink]
said on 1/9/2005 @ 1:05 am PT...
I think these insurgents are tougher. They are an amazing force, and this little war machine might be in for a surprise. Plus, I think the rebels have a lot of support from various quarters.
COMMENT #90 [Permalink]
said on 1/9/2005 @ 5:03 am PT...
Thank you Brad for all your hard work!
Having read the suggested piece "Living under Facism" ( Comment #30--via black box voting--link to breakthelink.org.---to article) I have another "piece" for your consideration. However, I warn you that it is truly very scary and you may want to eat something before reading it. Here's the website:
This article states the power of FEMA--you may be amazed--Fema is not just for disasters! With Executive Orders already on the books and more "ready to go" we, the liberal types, I think should fear FEMA.
Read it please. AM I NUTS? I suggest printing this article out and passing it on to friends and family. When I have told people of the massive powers of FEMA they appear troubled afterwards.
For more fun --- go the the official FEMA site:
www.fema.gov and search around within it. I couldn't find a mention of all the powers that be FEMA. :confused: If this topic has been here--please forgive me for bringing up another scary topic--honestly, I do try to keep up.
By the way, I like the concept of the "Velvet Revolution"--nice ring!
COMMENT #91 [Permalink]
said on 1/9/2005 @ 12:59 pm PT...
re: comments #73 and #80: How's this for an eerie coincidence?
Less than 24 hours ago I mentioned that the USA had created 'death squads' in El Salvador. Guess what? Some other people were talking about it too. In the Pentagon! And why? Because they are 'considering' doing the same thing in Iraq.
You can read this article for more gory details. I'll quote just a few choice bits below...
What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq? The Pentagon’s latest approach is being called "the Salvador option"—and the fact that it is being discussed at all is a measure of just how worried Donald Rumsfeld really is ...
[T]he Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.)
Apparently they intend to bring 'freedom' and 'democracy' to Iraq, no matter how many innocent people they have to kill to do it.
COMMENT #92 [Permalink]
said on 1/9/2005 @ 11:14 pm PT...
"FEMA...the secret government!"
Quote from X-Files, The Movie! We need Moulder and Scully back!
COMMENT #93 [Permalink]
said on 1/9/2005 @ 11:28 pm PT...
Thanks! I'm full of opinions! LOL Yes, keep reading up and down these blog threads because I contribute when I can, and yes Winter Patriot...I will be here tomorrow! LOL
9/11-plenty of fascinating stuff out there to read. Still would like to know more about the Atta and other hijacker visits to Las Vegas three times while important Saudi officials were there at the same time, just before 9/11, and from where many Saudi's departed after 9/11. Especially, the whereabouts and actions of Saudi Arabia's long-time Intelligence Director, who was also in Las Vegas and also a principal in the Trans Afghanistan Gas Pipeline, which is in the middle of this whole sleezy affair.
"Paranoia will destroy ya", but will also keep your butt alive! As all our skiddish animal friends will tell you! Keep digging and reading. It's fascinating!
COMMENT #94 [Permalink]
said on 1/10/2005 @ 4:56 am PT...
As an observer from the UK (my wife is American tho, so I'm not a total stranger) having read the FEMA article, I'm afraid to say that you folks are pretty screwed. The thieves have laid the ground work for decades and all they have to do now is get the signatures and take what they don't already have.
As a convinced liberal I'd love to say soemthing (actually, anything!) else, but it appears that even if you managed to get a revolution (velvet or otherwise) off the ground, the PTB have all the tools to stop it dead at their disposal.
If you ever do get the thieves thrown out on the streets (and they ain't all republicans folks!) then you have a whole load of laws to repeal and government bodies to disband before your liberties look anything like safe.
Sorry to sound negative, but I gotta call 'em how I see 'em.
COMMENT #95 [Permalink]
said on 1/10/2005 @ 11:33 pm PT...
Damnation! maybe the only thing left is a bottle of Jack Daniels & a desert island.....
COMMENT #96 [Permalink]
said on 1/11/2005 @ 12:50 pm PT...
COMMENT #97 [Permalink]
said on 1/11/2005 @ 12:57 pm PT...
Hey, I'm a foreign national so I can't take part in the Revolution - but I've got a nice pitchfork you can borrow...
COMMENT #98 [Permalink]
said on 4/5/2006 @ 8:20 pm PT...
no se pierda el interesante caso movistar
antes de nada siempre hay algo