READER COMMENTS ON
"RNC Political Director Cites Report by RNC 'Voting Rights' Front Group to RNC Email List!"
(59 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:40 pm PT...
Brad: Is Mr. Carter aware of what's going on? And who else is going to be on this commission? Are the REAL Election Reform Groups/VR going to ascend on this commission HARD and FAST and insist/ensure on being heard? It's a showdown - failure is not an option (tiresome phrase, but true).
More work for you, dear man. But I will at least DONATE "money" this week to try and help you in some small way. Our moral support you will always have. Hope you have wonderful helpers around you to keep you up and running.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:43 pm PT...
Come on.........wait until they produce something before you go screaming "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy".
Let's see what they have to offer FIRST!
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:47 pm PT...
Hi, Bill Campbell - They have been dishing out nothing buy lies and garbage (the Repubs.) for years - sorry, but that's my opinion! After so many lies, lies and more lies they won't EVER get another chance from me.
P.S. Brad - Got the info on the commission from previous blogs. Thanks.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:47 pm PT...
The address 5029 Macomb St Nw is a lovely residential area near American University. Property tax records list it as owned by a Kevin McDonnell who just bought it in December of 2004 for 1.7 million. The records indicate that the proerty is currently recieving tax releif through the homestead deduction program. One must be domiciled in the district or the property must be the principle residence to get the credit. I wonder if Mr. McDonnell shares a house with Mr. Dyke or if it is a rental?
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:51 pm PT...
Yes, I have been on all of the above for several days. Working on coordinating where I can. You should hear more about all of this from other places shortly.
Bill Campbell -
I've seen what they've done. I've read the ACVR's phony 31-page report. Unfortunately, I've also read Conyer's 102 Page report so I know what *really* happened last November.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 3:33 pm PT...
If anyone with "half a brain" reads Hearne's report its quite clear only Democrats commit election fraud.
Email this so called investigative election report to former President Carter he needs a good laugh.
Come on now gang ....anybody.... I mean anybody... who reads this"3rd grade"level report will laugh... and see its true value .."0".. none ... just a bunch of partisan lies.
I can't believe a lawyer wrote this report!!!!!!!!!
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
Republicans are Fascists
said on 3/30/2005 @ 3:46 pm PT...
It makes no difference to me that Jimmy Carter will be co-chairing this new so called commission. Any group having anything to do with James A. Baker, III is to be treated as suspect at the least and as deadly poison at that worst.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 4:33 pm PT...
So basically, if I'm understanding this correctly, Republican leaders are now relying quite heavily on the ineducabilty and prejudice of their own constituency?
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:01 pm PT...
Brad, diarist lapin at Dkos has posted some of your work over there and is doing his/her best to get it across to some sceptical (what's new?) posters. I left a couple of posts over there letting them know that all the info is here at Brad Blog. It's kinda sad that this is old news (I mean that in a good way) here, but at one of the "BIG" blogs, there just now getting a whiff.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:05 pm PT...
The Republicans are, more and more, pulling the strings of companies that compile voter registration databases and build the interfaces with each state's motor vehicle (DMV) records.
Companies winning contracts include Accenture, Covansys (formerly CBSI), ES&S, + Unisys. Campaign donations by these companies to $ federal candidates lean very strongly $ $ Republican. ---->
[takes you to middle of the site ubthjudge]
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:55 pm PT...
This whole sham is laughable. They really do think American's are IDIOTS. Where are the Dem voices in all this? Where is Conyers report on the republican dirty tricks? That will be presented to the committe also right? That and the video of the long lines in Ohio. Surely the legitamacy of this group will be questioned? This is crazy and totally ridiculous.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 6:21 pm PT...
Why doesn't Howard Dean see to it that copies of Conyers' report are sent to Democrats all over the country, along with a contrasting precis of the ACVR "study." Thus, the action will be seen to be non-partisan and the ludicrousness of ACVR's claims unmasked.
We need aggression in this fight, not appalled, helpless affront.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 6:43 pm PT...
Why doesn't Howard Dean see to it ...
Probably because he thinks Conyers, and all of you are equally nutty.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 7:36 pm PT...
Dean and Conyers, etc. are all working on this. Stay tuned...
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 7:38 pm PT...
Has anyone commented on or investigated the WI tire slashing incident??? That is clearly a federal crime.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 7:53 pm PT...
So is running an OH poll worker off the road.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 3/30/2005 @ 10:15 pm PT...
Not sure it will get much, but Carter was on Letterman about a month or so back.. does anyone know Letterman's email either at home or at the network? See if we can get him info, let him mull it over.. see if he can get it to Carter?
Not sure of what other celebs might know Carter and get him info.. But, you can be assured that the "officials" aren't gonna give him anything to hang themselves with.. and as old as he is, this "new fandangled internet thingy" is probably not something he's overly in touch with. Someone is gonna have to point him in the right direction (a little celeb time during their shows wouldn't hurt either.. if they bother to pay attention, that is)
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 2:49 am PT...
Jimmy Carter Address Info:
How can I communicate with President or Mrs. Carter?
All communications with the Carters must be by letter.
Note: E-mailing scheduling requests or invitations is not acceptable.
Invitations or appearance requests for President and/or Mrs. Carter must be sent via the U.S. Postal Service directly to the following mailing address:
The Carter Center
453 Freedom Parkway
Atlanta, GA 30307
How can I obtain an interview with President or Mrs. Carter or any other Center experts?
All interview requests for the Carter Center experts are handled through the Public Information Office. Requests may be sent via the U.S. Postal Service (address below) or faxed to 404-420-5145.
Interview requests for President Carter or Mrs. Carter are sent to Deanna Congileo, director of the Public Information office.
Requests to interview experts from the Center Peace Programs are sent to Kay Torrance, assistant director of Public Information, Peace Programs.
Requests to interview experts from the Center Health Programs are sent to Emily Howard Staub, coordinator of Public Relations, Health Programs.
Requests to interview experts from the Center Mental Health Program are sent to Jon Moor, associate director of the Public Information office.
The Carter Center
Public Information Office
453 Freedom Parkway
Atlanta, GA 30307
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 4:00 am PT...
If this happened then it should be pursued and prosecuted as should all crimes of intimidation and fraud. After all, since ACVR was the only "voter rights" group that was invited to the hearing, they have surely brought this one incident to their attention, but for you to latch on to one relatively small incident shows me that you are walking around with your eyes closed. Why don't you go educate yourself about the documented evidence of massive fraud in Ohio alone, and then come back here and dispute it, or is this outside of your talking points guidelines?
House Democrats Judiciary report in PDF form here.
For a look at what a real Republican thinks about the election and how the machines could have been hacked go here.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 4:57 am PT...
Here ya go, Genek #15 - this is way old news and no vote fraud to it. I'm surprised you didn't keep up while it dragged on for months. What news channel do you watch?
Anyway, the story was just another inflated smokescreen to keep any real vote fraud news from leaking out to that ol' Liberal Press.
Here's the last installment fully sourced:
The Nashua Advocate
Tuesday, January 25, 2005
News Exclusive: G.O.P. Lied About Democratic Tire-Slashing in Wisconsin; Affected Vans Were Designated Primarily for Poll-Watchers, No Voters Affected
By ADVOCATE STAFF
You could be forgiven for thinking that five street criminals doing dirty work for the Kerry-Edwards presidential campaign in Wisconsin swung the general election in the Badger State to the Democratic candidate.
You could be forgiven for that misapprehension, given the claims by the national and Wisconsin G.O.P. that the twenty-five Bush-Cheney vans whose tires were slashed in Milwaukee on Election Day were designated solely for emergency transportation of Republican voters who otherwise would not have voted --- and who, under the scenario put forward by Republicans, may not, in fact, have ultimately voted.
The Wisconsin tire-slashing has been used by Republicans for the past sixty days to fend off Democratic accusations that most if not all of the coordinated voter suppression efforts on Election Day were engineered by the Republican Party.
In some radical conservative quarters, the rumor-mongering has even led some Republicans to openly speculate that Bush really won Wisconsin.
Then again, maybe not.
Especially now that a substantial piece of the Republican tire-slashing scenario --- utilized so effectively by the G.O.P. to deflect Democratic criticism of the presidential election in Ohio --- appears to have been a lie.
A good one, too. Because it worked.
Witness, for example, the Republican-fueled hysteria over the tire-slashing incident in the days and weeks following the election:
"About thirty rented cars and vans that were to be used in the Wisconsin Republican Party's get-out-the-vote effort had their tires slashed Tuesday morning..."
-- Fox News Channel, November 3rd, 2004
"...a state Republican party news release accused [Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann] of 'dragging his feet' in the investigation of the election-day slashings of tires on twenty vehicles Republicans had rented to drive voters to the polls..."
-- Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, January 12th, 2005
"Said [Republican Party of Wisconsin Executive Director Rick Wiley], 'This was a coordinated act of political sabotage allegedly involving several paid staffers of the Democrat Party of Wisconsin...."....Early on the morning of the November 2nd, 2004 election, tires on twenty vehicles were slashed while parked in a lot in the 7100 block of West Capitol Drive. The vehicles were to be used by RPW in part to help voters get to the polls, including the elderly and disabled..."
-- The Conservative Voice, January 12th, 2005
"Two sons of prominent Democratic politicians and three paid party activists will face felony charges as a result of a widely-publicized attempt to keep Republicans from voting on Election Day in Milwaukee..."
-- Front Page Magazine, January 24th, 2005
Then witness, if you will, how the story imperceptibly, yet on a crucial point, suddenly changes, and with nary an asterisk from the mainstream media:
"The sons of a first-term congresswoman and of Milwaukee's former acting mayor were among five Democratic activists charged Monday with slashing the tires of vans rented by Republicans to drive voters and monitors to the polls on Election Day."
-- The Washington Post, January 25th, 2005
And now consider, for a moment, where the story stands at this very minute:
"The GOP rented more than 100 vehicles that were parked in a lot adjacent to a Bush campaign office. The party planned to drive poll watchers to polling places by 7 a.m. and deliver any voters who didn't have a ride...[Republican Party of Wisconsin Executive Director Rick] Wiley didn't say whether the vandalism prevented anyone from voting, but he said poll watchers were about two hours late."
-- CNN, January 25th, 2005
Is that it?
Is this the Republican response to the House Judiciary Committee's 102-page report on voting irregularities? That Republican "poll watchers" --- largely designated, incidentally, to "cage" minority voters at polling places around the country --- were "two hours late"?
And can it be that the Executive Director of the Republican Party of Wisconsin can't even identify a single Republican voter disenfranchised by the tire-slashing --- which, as it turns out, was in no way sponsored, supported, condoned, or sanctioned by the Kerry-Edwards campaign or the Democratic Party of Wisconsin?
The G.O.P.'s fraudulent media blitz over the slashed tires is made all the more nauseating by the fact that Republicans have claimed since 2000 --- erroneously, as it turns out --- that the U.S. Civil Rights Commission never found a single African-American who was disenfranchised by Republican antics leading up to the 2000 general election.
[Hint: try starting with Jeb Bush's illegal purging of 90,000 legitimate voters from the Florida voting rolls prior to Election Day 2000, with tens of thousands of them being, quite conveniently, Democratic-leaning minority-group members].
See Related Stories: (more)
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 5:20 am PT...
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 5:24 am PT...
Please include a description of where your link goes. TIA
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 5:24 am PT...
Hi, Bill Campbell
Drink some more kool-aid
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:03 am PT...
Agreed, Karma. Take a look at what they've already produced, BCampbell. That 31 page report should be an embarrassment to anyone who has any scruples. Ah, I forgot, if the Republican Party has any of those, you can bet they stole 'em from somebody else!
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:11 am PT...
From Brad's report:
"The Commission was seated in secret, announced on Thursday at 2pm, and lauded in a Press Release published by ACVR just 24 minutes later!"
That is some freaky shit. I only started realizing the truth about the voting situation around the time of the 11/2/04 election. Since then it sinks in more and more each day how bad things really are. And just when I think I understand the full extent of it, it gets even worse.
At first I had the questions: Is it a conspriacy? Is that possible? Is this crazy? Well, it IS a fucking conspiracy. The recent activities of these high-level Republicans can't be reasonably explained any other way. To get a press release out 24 minutes after the created-in-secret-by-secret-people blue ribbon commission means you already had the press release typed up BEFORE the announcement, when NO ONE from the established voting rights groups knew about it.
We know Baker is on the commission PRECISELY because he will thwart any true vote reform.
We can see for ourselves that ACagainstVR and their shitty report are also there PRECISELY to thwart true vote reform.
And now we can see from the timing of their actions that they are coordinated. We are going to have to work our asses off to put a stop to this.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:21 am PT...
Sandy #11 said
"This whole sham is laughable. They really do think American's are IDIOTS. Where are the Dem voices in all this?"
I wish I could laugh. Some portion of Americans are idiots, but more likely, they have good intentions but are misinformed.
At a minimum, the "sham" is perpetrated for control of the military and for increased corporate power. The innappropriate use of our military so far has resulted in well over 100,000 innocent civilian deaths. War profiteering is out of control (9 billion missing and counting) and our leaders don't care.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
Republicans are Fascists
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:58 am PT...
"Here ya go, Genek #15 - this is way old news and no vote fraud to it. I'm surprised you didn't keep up while it dragged on for months. What news channel do you watch?"
I may be going way out on a limb here but could it possibly be ...ummmm, FAUX News? The poor viewers of that network seem to always be misinformed, wonder why that is?
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 7:55 am PT...
The point is not this one attack, but that this was a coordinated effort on the part of organized liberal activists. Don't forget the other "protests"...
In three Florida cities, and in Minneapolis, Republican headquarters were ransacked by a mobs of angry protesters. In one case a broken arm was reported
In Tennessee, and West Virginia shots were fired into GOP offices.
In Spokane a hole was punched through a wall, from a room where Union laborers were working, into GOP headquarters and a computer with sensitive information had been moved. Apparently a thwarted robbery. In Bellvue Washington, efforts were more successful, as a hard drive containing GOP databases was stolen.
What happened to the party of peace, tolerance and inclusion???
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 7:56 am PT...
Any complaints about the Washington Gov. race?
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
Republicans are Fascists
said on 3/31/2005 @ 8:15 am PT...
"Any complaints about the Washington Gov. race?"
Yes, why the can't Rossi except an honest defeat?
I guess republicans so easily forgot their 2000 presidential election talking points.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:19 am PT...
If you want to end voter fraud, why won't dems support this???
INDIANAPOLIS - Legislation that would require voters to show photo identification before casting ballots has touched off fierce debate in three states, with opponents complaining the measures represent a return to the days of poll taxes and Jim Crow.
Lawmakers in Georgia and Indiana walked off the job to protest the proposals, which they say would deprive the poor, the elderly and minorities of the right to vote. Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat, has already vetoed a similar measure and has vowed to do so again.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:43 am PT...
Because, dear GeneK, poor folks don't always have driver's licenses or credit cards.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:47 am PT...
Your question is answered within your own post.
Got any links for these accusations, especially regarding gunfire?
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 10:16 am PT...
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 10:24 am PT...
Dear, dear Peg -
Instead of walking off the job, why don't you dems support something like a free State ID for the poor folks???
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
I got a recommended diary at DKos! I wrote up my take on Brad's reporting and the voting situation and posted it there. At first, it seemed like it would slide away into the void....and then POOF, up it went.
Coordinated attack on your voting rights happening NOW!
Manananana, THANKS for the inspiration.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:02 am PT...
What's the problem here? You Communists afraid of something?
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
Wow. At DKos a huge number of people have recommended my diary ref'd above.
The informations is spreading. Reaching more eyes. Neurons firing.
You watching ACVR??
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 12:46 pm PT...
Yet another application of the DeLay principle: If a non-partisan commitee is likely to make recommendations that I don't like, I'll just stack it with my buddies.
Truth, justice and the American way - neocon style!
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 1:17 pm PT...
Fifty years ago the Ohio Election Activities and Observation Report might have been taken seriously rather
then laughable as it now stands. However, its not 1955 were in the computer age and vote rigging methods have advanced far beyond the old time nickel and dime methods described in this report.
However, taken at face value this report represents a serious discriminatory offense against minorities. A dig, a blatant "pie in the face" sort of lets flaunt it and rub it in slam at certain American minorities and several key Federal Government employees.
It's an inside Republican joke.
Think about it?
This report written by Republicans and directed to the Untied States House of Representatives is nothing but a poor attempt at Jim Crow Racism. The report digs deeply into its bag of tricks using needless antiquated derogatory terms to illuminate supposed voter events. In one case, using the racist name "Jive Turkey " to describe one supposed voter incident based upon a Main Stream Media news article.
Why? What substance or redeeming value did it add to the report?
Couple that single incident with all the supposed NAACP violations based upon unsubstantiated Main Stream Media news releases and you immediately question the validity of the entire report. What purpose is served by highlighting these supposed events in a racist manner in this voting irregularity report submitted directly to Congress?
The Ohio Election Activities and Observation "Jim Crow" Report basis for a majority of supposed voting irregularities is "news articles" from our beloved and undependable lying Main Stream Media.
Think about it?
I have a question directed at our Brad Blog "lawyer" readers; "Were Federal Discrimination Laws violated by the submission of unsubstantiated information in a blatantly racist and/or stereotyping format utilized by the Republican sponsors of this report to Congress for a congressional investigation?"
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 4:13 pm PT...
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. Remember this on April 15th. Tell me where in this fair land is a Dem. represented.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 4:27 pm PT...
Tell me where in this fair land is a Dem. represented.
Massachusetts? Michigan? Callifornia? Oregon? Washinton DC and State? Plenty more too. Quit whining and pay your taxes. Just be glad there aren't more dems in power - you'd be paying a lot more.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 5:23 pm PT...
In the third paragraph, second sentence of the GOP letter, the substitution of a comma for a colon makes the sentence's meaning completely different. Is this to avoid possible litigation, or is it just ignorance? "...we have seen the perpetrators of voter intimidation and fraud, Democrats and their allies." As written, it doesn't say that Democrats and their allies are the perpetrators. If they wanted to say that the perpetrators were Democrats and their allies, the punctuation should have been a colon. This entire sentence is poorly written to the point of being almost unworkable. My mother, the English teacher, would red pencil the whole thing. As it is, it may be a possible "legalese" way of saying something while avoiding possible liable action. I may be splitting hairs, but Mr. DuHaime needs to take a composition class.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:19 pm PT...
Actually, Clem, you are probably exactly correct. The 16th Amendment is also seemingly as pathetically worded in such a way as to confuse the reader into thinking the taxing clauses were being undone. The Supreme Court, as I understand it, said "No.. the 16th Amendment does not give Congress any new taxing powers".. which means the 16th isn't what is used to justify Personal Income Taxes.. which means there are no 'leagal' means for our government to collect 'direct' 'unapportioned' taxes from us. It's a direct violation of the Taxing Clauses of the Constitution (though, as Manananana points out, just shut up and pay those illegally claimed (by the government) taxes (and ignore the illegal and terrorist-like IRS activities going on around the country in an attempt to intimidate people into submission).
Legaleese is a nasty business, but it's just about the only thing these people can hang on to to keep us all confused as hell..
For an interesting read (and to avoid pissing your pants [potentially] in a month or so after your taxes are submitted), head to this place and read up about the fights to force the government to answer for some things (right to petition for the redress of grievences thing happening there).
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:45 pm PT...
Hey, Genek... if the Repugnecon-presented bill -also- included making the "voting cards" 100% free, that would go a long way to making it more reasonable. But, to imply you -might- be able to include the poor/eldery/people-who-can't-afford-IDs (including transportation to the place to get it, time required to wait in line.. you know, McDonald's isn't gonna want burger-flippers out of work for a day to get a voting card, right? Those people would lose their job if 'scheduling' was turned into a mess..)
The -other- problems with things like this are, you are basically telling people "You need to provide proof that you exist and you are who you say you are" and make them do it in some kind of context where there are people in 'authority' standing around. Believe it or not, a -lot- of poverty-stricken people fear/hate persons in positions of authority since those are the people typically repsonsible for putting the poor person in poverty (racism, stereo-typing, looking to make bigger profits so cut jobs, etc etc). There are a lot of people who would be very affraid to go and get an "id" to vote with (and I"m sure a lot of disenfranchised people in this country are afraid to vote for those reasons too).
There is no "clean" way to take care of registration fraud.. though, even if you -had- to have IDs, you could just manufacture 1000s of fake ones for your guy to vote with too.. Keep that in mind.. Forcing IDs doesn't "fix" the problem, it just lets there be another way to discriminate (watch the laws start comming in to remove your ID card for various crimes all over the country, and watch poor folks start getting nailed BIG TIME for crimes just before voting starts).
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 7:21 pm PT...
I was able to get two of the links you listed. The first, about shots fired through a window. As dangerous and as radical as that ignorant idiot is, I don't see how this one event could be called election fraud. Not only did it not suppress votes, it actually had the opposite affect. Granted, it may have been the intention to frighten people but still, in the big picture, it had no affect. No votes were actually taken or changed. The same thing with the other incident, protesters forcing their way into a campaign office. No votes were affected. It's not fraud. Does it make it less serious? No. Did it have the potential to swing the election? No.
Listen, the issue here is, how does a group, that we should all be able to agree by now, is not only not non-partisan but backed by the GOP, become the only "voter rights" group invited to testify before a congressional investigation? Please see the first link in my #20 post above and explain how that documentation compares to what you linked to or even the accusations made by ACVR.
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 7:35 pm PT...
Come on Savantster.... let's deal with reality and not forecast or make up pretend problems to make a point.
Requiring picture IDs and proof of residency are necessary as part of the effort to eliminate voter fraud - end of story. There is no way you can argue against it unless you support voting by illegal immigrants, felons/others who have lost their right to vote, multiple votes by the same person, and fraudulent absentee voting.
Using fake voter IDs to disenfranchise millions and sway an election would only work in Hollywood - don't forget that a person needs to be registered and on the voter rolls first, the ID is proof of identification and proof of legal voting status. Sure, there will be minor fraud here and there - but when the perps are caught and sent to jail the fraud will drop off.
It might surprise you to learn that I also think that a paper receipt is also necessary. However, picture ID is an easy first step.
As to your point about “the Repugnecon [sic] presented bill -also- included making the "voting cards" 100% free, that would go a long way to making it more reasonable.” How about this…. why don’t you change your attitude and stop bitching and moaning and obstructing ideas simply because they are proposed by a conservative. Try and take a more constructive approach. Why the hell don’t you get off your ass, call your representatives and suggest the idea of a free state ID card for low income residents? In the time you spend making up fantasy conspiracy theories you got have actually worked on moving the country forward.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 8:29 pm PT...
First, the reason I was knocking "ideas simply because they are proposed by a conservative" is because I -know- how politics works. That is, if they make a bill saying simply "IDs are required", then the logical conclusion is those that can't afford to get IDs can't vote. In -any- district/city/county/state that doesn't want various "types" voting, for whatever reason, they simply make getting IDs prohibitive to certian 'types'. Is that a "conspiracy theory"? no, it's fact proven time and again by the "haves" against the "have nots". I fully support "legitimate" voting, no question (meaning, illegal immagrants should not be voting), but unless the "bill" is VERY carefully worded, it can and -will- be used to limit voting.
The -other- reason I tend to discredit 'conservative' ideas is they tend to infringe on my "right to freedom of religion (and lack thereof)". This particular 'point' has nothing to do with that though, so my 'obstructing' this idea is based on -knowing- how 'privledged' types would LOVE this kind of power (remember how 90,000 minority votes never got cast in Florida because of 'sweeping and broad' filters put against the names in 2000?).
On the surface, I'd agree.. A picture ID seems harmless, but it has to be made to be SURE to be harmless, otherwise it's a bad idea. You are 'obstructing' the Left's opposition to bills that are MISSING the statements about free IDs, why don't you "get off your ass" and tell your representitives to propose a bill (like they are doing) that also makes SURE it doesn't disenfranchise anyone? (better wear your rain-coat.. they are gonna spit on you pretty quick).
Here's a question.. you ever live in the streets? I mean, -really- live in the streets.. sleeping in cars, washing in gas station bathrooms, begging for food? I have.. I spent almost 2 years living in the streets. I even had a job at one point in there.. slept in the parking lot and fellow employees would wake me up for work. After 2 weeks I got a paycheck and got a boarding room.. after 2 more weeks they fired 20% of the people that helped build/open the Wal-Mart (it's something they do all over every time they open a store, but maybe you should discount my account as a conspiriacy theory). Shortly thereafter, the money from that month was gone, no new job could be found, and I was back in my car. I've met a lot of people who are pissed on by society, who are used and discarded by the rich, I -know- what I"m talking about. I've seen the 'culture of poverty' first hand, I've seen how it can twist people's minds and police and -all- other "officials" strike fear in their minds. They aren't gonna want to go stand in line for hours and hours to get a "free ID".. not to mention, 1/2 of those people might not be able to "prove" they exist with a birth certificate.
Hey, isn't supporting "free IDs for the poor" like welfare? No NONO, can't use tax dollars for that, right? Those nasty Dems/Liberals want to "take food out of your mouth and give it to some lazy jerkoff who doesn't want to work".. right?
I had a guy at work make the comment "welfare is full of people that only want a free ride, they are just lazy sucm". I asked him if -he- was ever on welfare. He, of course, said no (yet, his family was a military family.. that's kinda like welfare too). When I told him "I was", he got a kind of embarrased look on his face. You see, at the tail end of when I was living on the streets (single males don't really get welfare, even in Wisconsin when it gets down to -20 F in the winter and you are sleeping in a car) some girl I had only known for a few weeks got pregnant. She was 18, I was 21 (and living in the streets). She dropped out of college to have the baby and we moved in together (to see if we could work it out). She was on welfare (and since I was the babies father and living with her, the benifits were set to include all 3 of us as a family.. the HORROR, right? unwed? getting money like a family??? NOOOOOOO).. That's when I went to college.. for my daughter.. I got a BS in Computer Science and now make damn good money. Her mom, when the baby was 2, had welfare send her to school to be a Dental Assistant.. it's been 10 years now that she's paying taxes and MORE than paid back what she used in welfare. I've only been fully working for the last 7 years (a BS takes longer than the one year school she went to).. I get paid pretty well, and pay taxes (even though I've discovered there is no law requiring it as any such law would be unconstitutional). I've payed WAY more back then I used. But, "all people on welfare are scum who don't want to work", right? Isn't that what the Right/Conservatives/Republicans want you to believe? I agree we need welfare reform, I agree there are people abusing the system, but I also -know- that our system requires some people to be without jobs, even if it's a transient situation (and for a LOT of people, it's not as transient as it should be). But, we need welfare to prevent those people from losing everything they have.. or is it that you think only "certian people" should own things in our society?
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:37 pm PT...
GO!!! You have NAILED IT!!! Welfare and AIDC are not there for deadbeats, they MUST be there for PEOPLE WHO NEED TO BECOME! NO ONE chooses poverty; but life (and a wealthy state) owes the unjustly impoverished a chance to claw their way out of it.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:38 pm PT...
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:44 pm PT...
Let's deal with reality. Are you Gene Kilber? And if you are....why the new moniker?
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 4:52 am PT...
Nope...GeneK is simply short for Gene K Luther (firstname.lastname@example.org) and that is simply my online pseudonym. Gene K was my mechanic at Luther automotive.
#48 Savantster - congrats on working your way up. I don't know why you took this little trip from free IDs to welfare reform but here's my opinion. Welfare, AFDC, etc., are necessary gov't benefits and I believe that they should be used to help people up. I have had situations similar to yours (although not nearly a severe). Unfortunately, there are many, many people that take advantage of the system - esp. in WI and MN (I grew up in WI and currently live in MN).
It sounds like we agree on requiring an ID for voting - so my question remains "why don’t you change your attitude and stop bitching and moaning and obstructing ideas simply because they are proposed by a conservative. Try and take a more constructive approach. Why the hell don’t you get off your ass, call your representatives and suggest the idea of a free state ID card for low income residents?"
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 8:04 am PT...
You question “how does a group, that we should all be able to agree by now, is not only not non-partisan but backed by the GOP, become the only "voter rights" group invited to testify before a congressional investigation?”
According to the rules governing Congressional Investigations section 408 para (2) “Every investigating committee may issue, by majority vote of all its members, subpoenas requiring the attendance of witnesses and subpoenas duces tecum requiring the production of books, documents, or other evidence in any matter pending before the committee.”
So your questions should be:
1- who is on the Investigating Committee
2- who or what parties where brought forward by the committee members to serve as witnesses
3- which members of the committee voted for and against which potential witnesses
4- why did the committee members cast their vote a certain way
Unless and until I have those questions answered – I am unable to answer your question.
However, generally speaking, I would be opposed to only having a single group testify before an investigating committee unless that group is a recognized “expert” in the field and 100% of the committee members agree to only the one witness.
I think that this may be a red herring because if there were other witnesses that were voted down based upon partisanship, I’m sure that Boxer, Clinton, Kucenich, Kennedy, Dayton etc. would immediately hold a press conference. However, if your accusations hold out, I think you would have reason to be upset… and I’d co-sign letters/phone calls/ faxs/e-mails with you protesting the committees behavior.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 11:26 am PT...
Concerning the 31 page "Ohio Election Activities and Observation Report---
Fifty years ago the Ohio Election Activities and Observation Report might have been taken seriously. However, its not 1955 were in the computer age and vote rigging methods have advanced far beyond the old time nickel and dime methods described in this report.
Taken at face value this report represents a serious discriminatory offense against minorities. This report written by Republicans and directed to the Untied States House of Representatives is nothing but a poor attempt at Jim Crow Racism. The report digs deeply into its bag of tricks using needless antiquated derogatory terms to illuminate supposed voter events. In one case, using the racist name "Jive Turkey " to describe one supposed voter incident based upon a Main Stream Media news article.
Couple that single incident with all the supposed NAACP violations based upon unsubstantiated Main Stream Media news releases and you immediately question the validity of the entire report. What purpose is served by highlighting these single events in a racist manner in a report submitted to Congress?
The Ohio Election Activities and Observation "Jim Crow" Report of supposed voting irregularities is based upon "news articles" from our Main Stream Media.
So, I have a question directed at our Brad Blog readers; "Could Federal Discrimination Laws have been violated by the submission of unsubstantiated information in the blatantly racist form utilized by the authors of this report?"
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 1:48 pm PT...
Again, -you- are making accusations about how "liberals" are "shutting down" legislation that calls for "IDs to vote".. correct? Yet, what -you- are also -failing- to mention is the contents of the 'proposed bill'..
Are you new to how politics works? how bills are proposed? how 99 times out of 100 the bill has -something else- attached to it? Voting "up" or "down" on a bill is almost -never- about one single issue, yet the "meat" of the bill is always used to try and make general accusations about 'voting history'.
If the 'right' is proposing a 1/2 assed bill and not letting the 'left' modify it, then the last thing to do -is- to shut it down.. so what if the 'left' suggests amending "bill 111111 forcing IDs to vote" to include "free IDs for such purpose" but the 'right' shuts down the amendment? then what?
Again, you are falling into the trap of "black and white" when almost every time there are shades of grey.. and in this case, the grey is "immagine how dangerous to our society and democracy it would be if you could manage to exclude a large portion of the society by pricing 'voting IDs' too high".. If you can't understand that danger, and can't see how it's not as easy as "adding it to the bill", then there is no hope for you (yet, from other comments I see you making now, you seem like you might be saved yet!! here's hoping!)
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 2:09 pm PT...
This is exactly the POINT.. Congress -only- called ACVR to the meeting.. and claims them as an "expert" when they only existed on the web for 3 days before the meeting? They 'claim' to have been around for months, we're -still- waiting on their 'proof' (I'm guessing they don't have it). Their 31 page report was a joke and did NOT cover ligitimate complaints 'from the other side' and only talked about Democrat-based 'fraud'? What about all the documented problems that look like the Repugs were at the root of? What about voting machines not working/recording the wrong vote? Machines left in storage when they were needed at polling stations? What about -all- of those?
If you read all the things Brad has put together (provided they bear out to be true), you are saying "you'd be upset about it too".. well, from what we've seen (at least what I've seen), Brad does a pretty good job of getting "facts" before making stories.. Evne though someone could 'easily' try to defend those Brad is attacking, the 'facts' (as presented) don't support defending them. All the things tied together (like showing how the owners of ACVR are all right-wing fanatics intimately tied to BushCo, to which you say "what, I can't work in politics and then do something non-partisan later?".. sure you can, but these guys are -not- out of the arena, they are -still- working full force for the 'right', not non-partisan) paint a dim picture.
All in all, I appriciate your being civil and asking serious questions.. but if you read up on what's being discussed here (given your claim to being "informed", this should be something you are doing now) you'll see why there's a serious problem with what's going on with ACVR..
Most of us (at least me, and from what I've seen, most of us here) don't want there to be -any- problems with voting, even from the 'left'.. If it's found that the 'left' is doing illegal things, I, for one, fully support bringing those out as well. Put a stop to them, let's get this voting thing -correct- on all sides. The problem you have is, if the 'right' has ONE thing to distort about what the 'left' did, they latch onto that and ride it to death. When the 'left' has dozens of things to point out about the 'right', the 'right' trivializes those things. Some how, Republicans/Conservatives/Right-wing types find that ok, and are willing to totally overlook their transgressions and call Liberals all kinds of foul things over -one minor transgression- and use that to flog the entire group to death (and in times when there is no transgression from the 'left', the 'right' makes something up). It's a huge double-standard that the 'right' can't ever seem to get over, but most ppl on the 'left' that I've ever talked to can agree about (that we have our own problem people that need to be dealth with).
Anyway.. as far as this matter goes, there is a big problem with Congress 'pretending' to be looking into this, and "we" can't let them white-wash it. "we" need to do something about it.. and that's all we're trying to do here..
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 6:34 pm PT...
Hi, Genek #36 - How is a photo ID going to ensure the vote is counted, and not discarded or turned into a vote for a different candidate, by machines with secret software, owned and operated by partisans, and which machines have been shown to be accessed remotely and secretly by authorized or unauthorized persons, and actual totals replaced by any totals desired, resulting in the loser being announced the winner of an election?
How is a photo ID going to ensure that thousands of voter's names are not removed immediately prior to voting from the voter registration list, by partisan persons responsible for handling those lists?
How can a voter ensure that his photo ID will not be declared illegitimate at the time of voting, whether it is or not?
How can you prevent a proliferation of fraudulent voter ID's, which will be said to be prolific, whether they are or not, in order to justify non-acceptance of likely legitimate photo ID's?
Sorry, Genek. This is just another "red herring" to distract the public and yourself, perhaps, from the real issue and problem. Photo ID's are just a temporary cash-generating, distraction generating, tax expense for the public, but for the benefit of the Republican Party, away from the real problem of unverifiable, unauditable, hackable computer counting of votes which resulted in the wrong person occupying the Oval Office, TWICE.
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
said on 4/1/2005 @ 7:00 pm PT...
COMMENT #47 [link]
...GeneK said on 3/31/2005 @ 7:35pm PT...
"Come on Savantster.... let's deal with reality and not forecast or make up pretend problems to make a point."
"Requiring picture IDs and proof of residency are necessary as part of the effort to eliminate voter fraud - end of story. There is no way you can argue against it unless you support voting by illegal immigrants, felons/others who have lost their right to vote, multiple votes by the same person, and fraudulent absentee voting."
1. There is no proof that ID's will make any significant change whatsoever. The fraudulent ID's will create a new problem. The number of people who vote, who are not entitled to vote, is probably an insignificant number that will not affect the outcome of an election.
2. To say arguing against photo ID's means you support illegal voting is a false argument and meaningless.
"Using fake voter IDs to disenfranchise millions and sway an election would only work in Hollywood - don't forget that a person needs to be registered and on the voter rolls first, the ID is proof of identification and proof of legal voting status. Sure, there will be minor fraud here and there - but when the perps are caught and sent to jail the fraud will drop off."
3. Having a photo ID does not ensure your name will be on the voter registration list when you arrive to vote, or that you will be allowed to vote whether it is or not.
"It might surprise you to learn that I also think that a paper receipt is also necessary. However, picture ID is an easy first step."
4. There is no evidence that a photo ID is an easy first step or any solution. However, it is an easy distraction from the real solution.
"As to your point about “the Repugnecon [sic] presented bill -also- included making the "voting cards" 100% free, that would go a long way to making it more reasonable.” How about this…. why don’t you change your attitude and stop bitching and moaning and obstructing ideas simply because they are proposed by a conservative."
5. This implies you want a fee to be charged for the photo ID, and the suggestion that it be free is purely bitching and moaning and obstructive. Why? Are you planning to go into the profitable business of providing government ID's for the population?
"Try and take a more constructive approach. Why the hell don’t you get off your ass, call your representatives and suggest the idea of a free state ID card for low income residents? In the time you spend making up fantasy conspiracy theories you got have actually worked on moving the country forward."
6. I think the suggestion that the photo ID be free for the reasons stated is a constructive one. Furthermore, you have no idea what actions have or have not been taken by Savantster towards ensuring all legitimate votes are counted. Your remaining accusations are merely rude and unconstructive.
You are not convincing, and will not "distract" anyone in this crowd from the real and important issues.
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
said on 4/7/2005 @ 12:45 pm PT...
Let's deal with reality..
I didn't fucking write that "are you gene kilber" comment above.
Like talking to yourself i guess, genek