READER COMMENTS ON
"POLL: The Bush/Republican Freefall Continues..."
(31 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 2:05 pm PT...
Ballot box machinery trumps everything. Explains Administrations arrogance. I'd love to have a job in which I could not get fired. The everyone would see the real me : ) !
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 2:06 pm PT...
"That said, perhaps now is a good time to remind Democrats once again that none of those numbers much matter. Not as long as the Republicans own the ballot box machinery. Pay attention. Or continue your "losing" streak."
Yes, in_deed, that is the root message. Until we have voter-verified paper ballots and unrestricted access to cast those ballots, the neoconsters will remain in control. If you want to detect a latent neoconster just way "Not one line of code between a voter and a valid election" and watch them freak.
http:www.missionnotaccomplished.us - Support AfterDowningStreet.org.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 2:09 pm PT...
This shows we have to continue printing out important stories and leaving them in public places.
I LOVE to slip them inside magazines and newspapers in waiting rooms, restaurants, and coffee shops.
I wonder if I can get into trouble for putting copies inside library books, and in newspapers in the stands? Hmmmm....
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 2:28 pm PT...
Since polls don't really mean much to someone that illicitly controls the votes, we can only use these numbers on people that believe that they do...democrats! We can use these numbers to push them toward investigating the Bush criminal machine. Then during the impeachment & resulting criminal trails offer up plea bargains - not to the top cabinet members - but to some mid-level persons that knew all the dealings - and BOOM - we use that evidence to send Bush away for a long time, along with his friends at the voting/energy corporations.
Yeah, I'm a forward thinker.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 3:00 pm PT...
I have two fears.
Well, actually, I have many, but these are two that are apropos:
1) The vote rigging is important. Wildly important. Earth-shatteringly important. But it will never get play. My fear is that no matter how much evidence is revealed, the overriding attitude in America is that this is no more than sour grapes. It's not right, but what I get whenever I begin to mention the details and facts that have been revealed here, I get rolled eyes and 'get over it, already' attitudes, as if I'm some sports fan arguing over a blown call that happened in some big game.
Pleaase keep following this story. Please keep us posted. Because it is important. If not for this generation, than for the next one--perhaps our children will learn the lessons that their parents didn't want to know.
Which leads me to my next fear:
2) If not Bush, then who? Where is the conscience of the Democratic Party? Where is the cohesive opposition, willing to take a stand against these imperialists? I'm afraid that the Democratic Party is too busy tearing itself apart, trying to figure out what the hell it wants to be. Dean screams firery rhetoric, and the rest of the 'leaders' clear their throats, examine their shoes, and try to shuffle away. Say what you will about Dean, but at least he's trying. But I'm afraid that unless there's some sort of cohesiveness in the party, the GOP will stay in power regardles of their awful polling numbers, because there won't be anyone or any party strong enough to oppose even a weakened Repub party.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 3:32 pm PT...
I think we applaud USA Today. Maybe not yesterday, maybe not tomorrow, but today I think so.
They have taken the argument to the MSM within the MSM.
Yes, they are framing the Downing Street Minutes/Memo in the right framework: DID THE MSM DROP THE BALL on the DSM?
That is important, because it brings three questions into focus:
1) where the hell is the patriotic MSM? (the fifth estate that is supposed to rip the government a new your know what anytime, anywhere the government drifts toward fascism);
2) where the hell are the patriotic journalists (those who are not in bed with the government a la propaganda - but who watch and report all those who are in bed with the government).
3) why would a british intelligence agent lie to his superiors in minutes which no one disputed during the british elections where bLiar got his ass kicked?
Well ... I ask my fellow bloggers to salute, even if just for today, the gutsy MSM at USA today on this one (link here).
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 5:04 pm PT...
I agree in part, Dredd. But I have seen that is how they cut the story short. The coverage is of the coverage and not about the actual story. Just imagine if they did what the Sunday Times in the UK did, and showed the complete documents - then analysis about about what Bush and Blair said/did leading up the war - then continued investigation. In the context of that, the discussion of what everyone else in the media was doing would flow naturally into the discussion.
If all the news sources started reporting what all the other news sources were doing then the only thing we would gain is great apathy toward the media - but little progress about the actual point of the matter. I salute them for doing an end run around the issue. They pulled a Kerry.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 5:55 pm PT...
SOJO, I like your thinking!
As South Africa and Chile have both held Truth and Reconciliation Commissions, so must America, in order to put this sorry chapter behind her. Then and only then with the conduct of free and fair elections can America deservedly boast the title as the World's Greatest Democracy and therefore be in a position to lecture others on issues of freedom and democracy.
In the meantime, once the last "Terrorist" has been released from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, I suggest they keep the facility open for some new arrivals who truly hate freedom!
P.S. Australia manages to hold transparent, free and fair elections and it pains me to witness such a great nation as America floundering around with such a broken and compromised electoral system!
P.S.S. Blokes, we gave you a perfectly sound voting system for "no charge" way back in the 1880's.......how did you manage to stuff it up so comprehensively??
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:15 pm PT...
**The Republican Double Standard** --- Where was the outrage when Hannity, Rush or Coulter Said....
FOX's Dick Morris: "[T]here never will be any" moderate Muslim voices
On FOX, Tony Blankley called Soros "a Jew who figured out a way to survive the Holocaust"
Rush Limbaugh on the Abu Ghraib photos: "I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?"
"The Democrats want Saddam back" and other Coulterisms
Ann Coulter on tour: "I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days" to talk to liberals
David Horowitz: Democrats, media are "getting Americans killed in Iraq ... because of their pathological hatred of George [W.] Bush"
**More** bonddad at Daily Kos
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:17 pm PT...
Tell me more about the voting system we got from y'all down under ... inquiring minds, y'know ...
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:17 pm PT...
I agree, SoJo -
They gave it a nod, a wave, and a "so long."
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:18 pm PT...
Sojo, Bushw@cker #7,#8
You may not realize how important it is to put pressure on the MSM.
The neocons do not react to it. They are too caloused.
But the MSM can be hurt big time by the public.
The MSM knows they are not getting the hearts and minds of the public because as this thread shows, the people think little of the way the admin is behaving even with the full backing of the MSM.
What that means to the MSM is they are loosing the public trust!
So when those within the MSM begin to turn and criticize the greater propaganda whores within, guess what is going to happen?
Same thing as when the honest republicans begin to tell the fascist neocons within to get out!
No guys, you missed it on this one. It is a landmark move because the MSM are greater threats by so very far than the neocons are.
The instant the MSM gives up its whoring ways and gets the job done is the instant the neocons go down!
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:37 pm PT...
Jonathon Alter's Article which Brad links to in another thread, is a perfect illustration of the real enemy to focus on.
We will always have Nixons and Bu$hes. But the big story, which I try to point out in my post #6, above, is all about what has changed.
We had crooks and liars during the Watergate days. We had political corruption and lies. We had war crimes in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.
But we had a difference ... the MSM ... were still patriotic and exposed the whole damn mess and that is why the shit came down upon the heads of the crooks.
Jonathon Alter goes thru the scenario of what would happen today if Watergate happened. The MSM would roll over and play dead and hope the neocons would scratch their belly.
That is why we must applaud every MSM article that sticks it to the MSM that is still practicing whoredom by spreading admin propaganda and leaving out the investigative journalism of the Watergate kind.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:41 pm PT...
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 8:07 pm PT...
Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps USAToday is serious about pushing the Dowing Street Minutes. In this case I would rather be wrong than right anyway. But I'm just not convinced these people have any interest in telling the truth.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 8:24 pm PT...
Redouble your efforts, the shadow government is getting really unhappy!!!!!
"Some Bilderberg members expressed a wish to essentially invade the US with UN peacekeeping troops and confront Patriots. Bilderberg can't use the US military to carry out their dirty work because they are worried it would backfire as US troops would refuse to fire on their own citizens.
Many in the Christian Patriot movement have been saying that this would take place for a long time and have been ridiculed for doing so. However, this information lends credibility to an age-old warning handed down the generations, that one day the blue helmeted forces of world government would engage patriotic Americans sworn on defending their country.
The fact that we are causing Bilderberg so much annoyance in the first place should bring joy to us all! It only emphasises the fact that we are having a significant effect and should only redouble our efforts.
Estulin added that the security crackdown for Bilderberg this year was worse than ever. He almost didn't make it into the country after police and Interpol agents boarded his plane and lead him away for questioning. Estulin was able to shake them off by enlisting the help of his media contacts, who pressured the German government into letting him enter the country."
The final stand to save democracy? Is it beginning?
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 8:50 pm PT...
Matt S., we could only dream of being liberated by the UN.
Now go away. We do not feed the trolls here.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 9:45 pm PT...
Re: #13 and others.
I agree that focus on the whoredom of the MSM is of utmost importance.
But I would go further in contemplating the line that runs from Watergate to the present. The primary change - central to so much - is corporate (and power, influence) consolidation and wealth redistribution. What is it - 1% of the population now owns 40% of the wealth? It was nothing like this in Nixon's time. There were also actual news organizations and a culture of journalism.
Taking into consideration the central fact of our time - the consolidation of wealth and power - we should think of what effects it would and does have. It seems to me that it would be largely undemocratic and authoritarian (as some of our founders feared) it would act as a center of gravity taking other institutions into its orbit. It is not surprising to me that MSM has devolved into a PR arm of the central power establishment.
PR, I guess, could be considered a form of slanted, incomplete news, but it is not journalism. Really, it seems a stretch to call it news. I believe "alternative" news sources are not alternative at all but are *the* news sources. I think we have to get used to their revolutionary character. They don't exist solely to reform the MSM. The societal and political line from Nixon to the present and the fact of wealth and media consolidation presents an immense structural problem in any effort to persuade the MSM to cover issues as it should. We can, however, work on the MSM in pursuit of specific goals - in fact, we have to. There is no choice. But independent sources must face the fact that they themselves are the future.
The basic practical cultural problem is that most of our society is MSM embedded. That's why IM (independent media) has to imbue MSM with reasons to tell the truth. That's a big part of our job, I think.
We are coming to the end of the culture of bigness and gross corporate accumulation of power - what I think can be designated as an era from the end of WWII to now. (We will have passed a major milestone when some politicians begin to acknowledge it.) IM, Friedman (Brad, not Tom), and most of us are (often unconscious) initiators of the future.
I'm going way off track. Sorry. In regard to the USA Today article, I agree with Dredd that it is very important at this time to put some fear into the MSM of losing the public trust. But the article has kind of an ombudsman feel to it - like the kind of self-examining weekly column that our local editor writes that nobody reads.
I don't see it as a diversion. I see it as a sincere effort of rather clueless writer who still doesn't see the story as front page material. But I'll never say "all or nothing". Keep it afloat, and we should be looking for followups and similar articles to see if there is a trend. That's the important thing.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 10:55 pm PT...
Arry #18 Well said.
I would only add that the consolidation of wealth and power in this administration has the face of big oil showing thru.
Big oil that is manipulating the policy, practice, and foreign experience into one of militant tactical plays. Those plays (in the form of war, etc.) are aimed at controlling geography that has oil or exerts influence (intimidation included) over geography that has oil.
They are doing it in a manner that exposes them as either diabolical power grabbers, or as those who firmly believe in PEAK OIL (link here, and here).
Or perhaps as a mixture of both.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 11:40 pm PT...
re #17 hey Sojo: I don't think Matt is a troll. His post #16 makes sense to me. You have any evidence to back your claim?
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 6/9/2005 @ 1:21 am PT...
If you think those poll numbers are bad, just wait a bit. Our economy is headed at breakneck speed for a cliff that has no bottom. Washington now borrows three billion per day from foreigners, and the central banks of Japan, China, S. Korea, etc. are getting leery about extending more credit. The Federal Gov't is now directly monetizing new debt--i.e, printing dollars to buy ITS OWN NEW DEBT ISSUES. The world is awash in debt, hedged and leveraged to the hilt, with the derivative balloon now at an unfathomable 300 TRILLION dollars.
The housing bubble, which is global, seems to be popping in Australia and London. It will likely begin imploding here in this county over the next few months. And when it does, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack will be dragged down, leaving the Federal Gov't to cover the trillions in bonds they've sold--and guaranteed. In next order go the pension funds, the stock and bond markets...
When inflation hits a hundred percent a year and unemployment is at 40% and people are literally starving in tent cities, people aren't going to blame Bill Clinton. They're going to remember the 90's as a golden era. And they're not going to much care for the martial law that Bush&Cheney impose as civil unrest spirals rapidly into armed rebellions.
Bush will never see numbers this good again, that's my prediction.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 6/9/2005 @ 1:23 am PT...
No WP, Matt isn't a troll. He's just uninformed about the Bilderbergers, whose annual conference was illegally attended by members of the "Administration." These are the power-brokers of the western corporatocracy, who want to own the world and all of us humans within it. They are the great "Satan" of commerce gone wild and feral.
Perhaps they do indeed intend to take over governance of the United States. BushCo is behind them. We'll die first. I, for one, will not give the world away.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/9/2005 @ 2:22 am PT...
For Unirealist: I'd add that consumers have maxed out on their home equity through second mortgages and equity lines of credit. This should mean that they've been able to pay off their credit cards and save all that brutal interest.
In fact, the opposite has happened. As home equity debt has risen, so has credit card debt. With the new law making it harder to declare bankruptcy, we can be sure that when the economy starts imploding, foreclosures will accelerate the process. Bush won't be impacted, but his historical standing will.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 6/9/2005 @ 3:29 am PT...
Bush won't be impacted??? I can't imagine anyone in the US who will be more impacted, lest it be Mr. Greenspan, who will probably be hung from a lamp post. I have returned to this theme again and again in my posts: the warped political scene in our country echoes the warped economic one. I love the dialogues here, but so much of what is said focuses on the political, and doesn't grasp that those issues derive from the economic. The rise of the Fundamentalist Right did not occur in isolation. It came with the slide into national bankruptcy. Freedom is an expensive luxury; in good times it is granted, and in hard times it is taken away. In the 60's the US was rich, and freedoms plentiful. Now we are impoverished, and all freedoms are reduced.
Since about 1969, this country has actually had a negative GDP. The pie has been shrinking, and everybody has been fighting to hold onto their own slice. Debt has skyrocketed because one of the strategies for preserving one's share of the pie is to borrow from the future--which is what debt, in the last analysis, amounts to--a loan from the future. We actually had a chance, during Carter's Presidency, to face the truth and change our ways. Instead, the people chose illusion, and elected Ronald Reagan. The night he was elected, I kissed America good-bye. And Clinton changed nothing. He merely found a way to hide our growing debts as a stock market bubble.
So, yeah, it's over. Politically, economically, and every other way. What we're actually doing here is organizing, without even realizing it, for the future, when all those trillion dollar debts come due. We are gathering evidence for the TRIALS to come, just like before the French Revolution. We are trying to understand how this happened in spite of our great Constitution, so that we can prevent it from happening next time, to our grandchildren and great grandchildren. And--we are getting ready for the final assault on liberty, when the corrupt administration and all its pissant minions try to hold onto their power with martial law.
And I do thank you for all the wonderfully cogent and insightful posts you have offered us.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 6/9/2005 @ 4:28 am PT...
G'day KIRA re: #10
A system of balloting or voting in public elections, originally used in South Australia, in which there is such an arrangement for polling votes that secrecy is compulsorily maintained, and the ballot used is an official ballot printed and distributed by the government.
Here's a wiki link to info about the "Australian Ballot" or "Secret Ballot" and its
adoption in the United States and elsewhere.
More on Australian Ballots here.
Australia still runs a paper based compulsory preferential voting
system where every vote is hand counted at every polling booth by unpaid volunteers who "work" for the Australian Electoral Commission (a non party- political 100% government funded organization)
The AEC maintains the Electoral Roll of all eligible voters (all those mentally competent over the age of 18yrs not currently serving a prison sentence) on an electorate by electorate basis.
Upon your arrival at your polling booth, you are offered "how to vote" flyers by each candidate's representative, beyond this point, NO-ONE other than the voters, AEC officials and occasional media are permitted/authorized to enter the polling precinct. (Our system DOES NOT allow Voter Challengers)
As each voter enters the booth, their name is crossed off the roll before being handed the voting forms representing each parliamentary house.
Each polling corral has a high tech pencil and a valid vote is recorded when a consecutive number is placed in each box alongside each candidate in order of preference.
Present at each polling booth count are representatives of each political party along with independents, the media and interested members of the public who are FREE to WITNESS and VERIFY the counting of each vote.
The computer tallying of each electorate including the distribution of preferences is conducted solely by the AEC.
If a re-count is requested by any of the candidates, the paper ballots are once again manually counted.
Redistribution of electoral boundaries is transparently performed by the AEC in a totally non-partisan fashion.
When the result is finally declared, I may be pissed off with the outcome and harbour grave suspicion of the biased MSMís role it, but unlike you guys, I donít loose sleep wondering whether my vote or my neighbourís vote was fairly counted.
I have to push the pram alot!
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/9/2005 @ 5:54 am PT...
For Unirealist: By "Bush won't be impacted," I meant, "He doesn't have a mortgage for anyone to foreclose on, and he doesn't need credit cards."
I should have said "personally impacted by the economic crisis that looms ahead." Sorry for the
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 6/9/2005 @ 5:55 am PT...
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 6/9/2005 @ 7:43 am PT...
Matt S #16
You ask "The final stand to save democracy? Is it beginning?".
We don't have one right now. One cannot save what does not exist. So your theory is one involving geography, property, or "turf".
There is no democracy when the leaders lie and the people do not, therefore, know the true picture. The democracy of government of, for, and by the people means they must know what is going on.
Government secrecy and lies is the mortal enemy of government by the people. Instead it is government by the liars.
There is no democracy when the MSM is the propaganda arm of the neocon wannabe fascist government.
We are trying to get fair and honest presidential elections going again, not having seen them for half a decade now.
When the democracy returns by the return of fair and honest presidential elections then we can speculate about saving it.
At this point the real discourse needs to be about returning it. About solid ATM-type audit trails on any and all voting machines used in elections.
War is not the answer to the problem in your hypothetical Matt.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 6/10/2005 @ 2:11 am PT...
I think everyone was misinterpreting matt. I get what the article means, is that the Bilderberg group wants to march into the USA.
Maybe they are really upset and want to go to war with the patriots? Whatever the case government secrecy is a very bad, underhanded thing. We need to put a stop to it and illegal abuse of power.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/10/2005 @ 8:21 am PT...
I think the point to emphasize regarding the Downing Street minutes is that the issue was fully vetted in the British election campaign...AND THE CLAIMS MADE AGAINST BUSH AND BLAIR WERE NOT REFUTED.
The issue went through the press cycle of point and counterpoint. It was also aired fully in Parliament. And the charge stood up! Bush and Blair can't sit in the White House and fool everybody now, after the British public examined the whole issue and found it legitimate.
Is it impeachable? I doubt it, but I sure hope so.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 6/15/2005 @ 7:41 pm PT...
The MSM could clean up their act by keeping this in mind: FACTS AREN'T LIBERAL. The way the rightwingers get facts out of the MSM reporting, is to cry that a story is liberal, and to float a counter-story that isn't factual into the MSM to confuse the facts. When this happens, the MSM fails by either not reporting the factual story, or reporting both the factual story and the rightwing non-factual counter-story, so readers/viewers are then left to think that everyone's lying, which is "mission accomplished" by the rightwing. The MSM must simply print factual stories and not bend to cries of the rightwing claiming "facts are liberal". Of course they don't like facts that make them look bad!