READER COMMENTS ON
"White House Announces Formation of Domestic Secret Police"
(63 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 1:04 pm PT...
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 1:08 pm PT...
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 1:20 pm PT...
Oooo --- VDRES #1,2 They're definitely moving in. Listening in on CELL PHONES!!!
Last night I posted this on another Bradblog thread:
Hot Off the Press
Bush OKs Shake-Up of Spy Agencies
By KATHERINE SHRADER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
President Bush granted the new national intelligence chief expanded power over the FBI on Wednesday and ordered dozens of other spy agency changes as the White House heeded a presidential commission that condemned the intelligence community for failures in Iraq and elsewhere.
Oh, yeah. Try to pin the blame on anybody else, shrubman. How many reports warning of 9/11 were laughed off & ignored by the fake cowboy?
The article suggests even more reasons for Freedom Lovers to beware this new national intelligence agency. No dissenters in bu$hworld.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 1:22 pm PT...
Use of PO Boxes suggests CIA chartered flights and Negroponte involvement. [ More . . . ]
In case you're wondering how the RNC is holding up, things aren't looking too good. And don't tell the RNC about GCHQ: How they're setting up RNC for obstruction of justice and war crimes indictments. [ More . . . ]
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 1:33 pm PT...
Constant, I hope you're right!
I would love to see the real criminals behind 9/11 behind bars.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 1:52 pm PT...
With the advent of "America's SS," perhaps it is time to go into seclusion.
These are the really scary people. As we move closer to being the next Nazi Germany, we can expect these New Generation Brownshirts to cause people to "disappear."
This now marks the end of democracy in the USA.
It was fun while it lasted.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 2:34 pm PT...
"Death squad" Negroponte.
What a guy to be in charge of domestic spying.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 3:24 pm PT...
So what is the problem?
We already have a Secret Court whose operations are classified (link here).
What is the big deal with secret police then? They have been using secret police already for as long as the secret court has existed.
PS. I have recently fallen in love with a stunning babe and have been "posting" in secret ... plan to return to public "posting" soon.
Love all you BradBloggers.
Keep on rockin' in the free world ...
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 3:45 pm PT...
The secret police are necessary to counter the "anti-america movement" (AAM).
This AAM is composed of those who have brought recruitment numbers down (link here) according to the bu$hit doctrine.
The bu$hit doctrine is that anyone who is anti-war is anti-america.
I guess that means the bu$hit doctrine is that america is a warmongering nation.
But the truth is that america is a peace loving nation and amerika is warmongering.
There are wolf neocons among us and we are going to spit them, shit them, and puke them back into the gutters/sewers from whence they came.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 4:07 pm PT...
Dredd #8 -
Hello! and Congratulations!
Forgive my ignorance, but what is GCHQ?
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
Grizzly Bear Dancer
said on 6/30/2005 @ 5:11 pm PT...
Thank you Brad. Beacon in a black hole you are. These pricks are gonna do everything they can to hold onto their power. American citizens are just along for the ride. Those that disagree with the "American Empire Agenda" may find a knock on their door, a threatening phone call, or even death. This Bushit administration is like Rome after the glory days when it turned ugle. Once leaders of the civilized free world, the Roman Empire tried to extend their tentacles of police law around the world until the Romans finally killed Ceasar. (an inside job) The stakes are much higher now because the world is in a worse place than it was back then. It is important that We trapped Americans appreciate George Dubbya as the lying murdering loser scum of the earth that he is. Sitting tall in control of the US mass media, he does a good job of using his propaganda machine to spread fear, regurgitate lies, and hide the truth in an effort to disguise himself as a patriotic father figure Christian.
"WE WILL IMPEACH AND JAIL YOUR CORRUPT INBRED ACE!!!" -Grizzly Dancer
but lets periodically put the little beoch and his douchebag cronnies in a stockade so we can air live video coverage of people throwing dog shitte and rotten food at them.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 5:20 pm PT...
Kira #5- HEAR HEAR, I couldn't agree with you more!! I have read recently that someone is writing a book about radiation at Ground Zero, that can only be attributed to bombs! I hope this is true, and will uncover the real criminals and all the lies they told about that horrific day.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/30/2005 @ 5:59 pm PT...
Dredd, you haven't been using the name "Jimmo" by any chance, have you?
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 6:01 pm PT...
I wish they'd just get it over with and take me to a prison camp somewhere. :confused:
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 6:18 pm PT...
Guys, guys; cut the Administration some slack. Heck, secret police are compulsory for totalitarian regimes, after all.
And, hey, with the recent supreme court ruling, BushCo can build reeducation camps pretty much wherever they want.
Ironically, I have a feeling that while we warehouse foreign combatants in the tropics, liberal troublemakers are going to be warehouses in a camp somewhere in rural North Dakota... or Alaska... Brrr.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 6:20 pm PT...
When they ship me off to Gitmo
Because I'm a Democrat
Must I wear an orange jumpsuit
Oh, my God, I'll look so FAT!
Is it my suspicious mailman
Who's turning out to be the rat
Who's got me shipping off to Gitmo
Because I'm a Democrat
When they ship me off to Gitmo
Because I'm a liberal
Will they pipe in the Savage Weenie
Or a drugged up Rush Limbaugh
Or Dobson family-friendly stations'
Soft rock favorites from Hell
When they ship me off to Gitmo
Because I'm a liberal.
When they ship me off to Gitmo
Because I don't go to church
Will my friends and family visit me
Or leave me in the lurch?
Will I be pictured on a leash
Or atop a pyramid perched?
When they ship me off to Gitmo
Because I don't go to church.
Oh when they ship me off to Gitmo...
I won't be goin' in a limo
I'll just be shufflin' off to Gitmo
Because I'm a Democrat
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 6:25 pm PT...
It is sites such as this that will enable americans to regain control of our country and our future.
Thank you Brad, for everything you have done.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 6:49 pm PT...
So, did the rightwing MSM condition us not to compare Bush to Hitler yet? Not me!!! I didn't fall for that.
STARTING A SECRET POLICE IS LIKE HITLER'S S.S.
Did I fall for the Republican media echo chamber in the news, trying to make me feel bad about Hitler comparisons to Bush???
NO F***ING WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 6:55 pm PT...
Not that he isn't responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths (Iraq War), but you don't have to commit a holocaust to point out valid comparisons of the Bush administration's secret police and media propoganda (fake news reports) to Hitler's S.S. and ministry of propoganda. Those are absolutely valid comparisons, and should not be suppressed.
Sorry, Jon Stewart, you're wrong on this one. A valid comparison is a valid comparison, and we shouldn't be afraid to point it out.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 7:13 pm PT...
Alberto Gonzales is a "freak-eyed psychopath" and John Negroponte gives me the chills.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 7:44 pm PT...
They ALL give me the chills!!!
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 8:27 pm PT...
Keep your focus on the big picture and realize this is predictable and indeed expected. In fact, had their plans gone well on 9/11 we wouldn't be discussing this, or anything here at this point. But they fucked everything up as usual.
Every act and event is geared to carry out the ultimate goals of the "agenda". By now some of you have figured out what the agenda is but many have yet to connect all the dots of destruction. Think deeply about it. There can be only one result for America now.
Call me a tinfoil hatter if you want, but I don't care what you think about me. Educate your loved ones and prepare to be on your own. And don't ever give up.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 10:40 pm PT...
Not to worry boys. If, or when, the brown-shirts start crashing through doors in the middle of the night, they'll be met with bullits instead of frightened victoms. We might be getting the government of the Nazi's, but we have the experience of the Jewish people to draw upon. They had it right when they said "Never Again". Believe me, there's a hundred million guns in the United States and we're making more every day. This time it will be different.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 10:58 pm PT...
Thanks, Torqued. We won't. We're still sentient, aren't we?
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 6/30/2005 @ 11:13 pm PT...
Torqued #22- I don't think you are a tin foil hatter at all. Knowing what I now know regarding 9/11, reading the article and seeing the picture of one of the 600 "empty camps" around the States, that can hold up to 100,000, now Domestic secret police, it's all too frighteningly clear. I am curious as to your statement "But they fucked everything up as usual" in your opinion, what do you think they "fucked up"??
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 2:42 am PT...
Re: Sarah #25 --
Because they intended to finish the job on 9/11. They had no intentions in dragging everything out through legislation in Congress and through other acts, actions, and events since improvised. The police state action was meant to be instated immediately on 9/11.
Everything was in place but for one major screwup. Flight 93 had to be shot down over Pennsylvania while enroute to the nation capital. The target; Congress. Lacking the intended murder of our congressmen and senators they couldn't continue the coup that day.
Don't take my word for it though... Study documentation of the events yourself, before and after, including the positioning of FEMA pre-9/11, and their role. Study everything you can find, the truth is in plain sight for all to see. Inform others what you have learned and show them where you found it.
Be aware that their improvised plan is on track and probably irreversible at this point.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 4:12 am PT...
Torqued is right. I have given a lot of thought to 9/11 and subsequent developments. I confess, Torqued, that I hadn't even considered the Flight 93 issue. Duh. Your take on it certainly makes sense. They could have had the whole enchilada right then.
But there are many many more of us now that know and are willing to confront them. Maybe, just maybe enough. But maybe not.
I'm trying to educate as many folks as I can. Here's a surprise though - a small one but maybe significant. Some local workers came to my office yesterday to install built-in bookshelves for me. The kind of guys -owner and two employees- you might think, if you saw them on the road, to be repug know nothings. As we talked (while I watched), the conversation ranged to problems with gas, problems with loss of personal freedom and the like. What got me was that these guys were perfectly aware of many of these issues (not the 9/11 one - but I gave them url's to look at) and boy are they pissed at Bush and the conservatives. And this is in a smallish town in the south. Was I surprised. And this is not the only incident where something like this has happened to me. I think there is a slow, but measurable ground-swell of anger and indignation at the neocons growing.
If only there is time enough. They could try but I don't think (translate to 'hope') can put millions in the camps.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 4:35 am PT...
I am sitting in South Africa and it is amazing how our nation has turned against president Bush and Amerika as a whole.The idea of comparing nazi germany and the USA has been around for at least a year now.
However,I firmly believe that all Americans are going to have a big wake up call,before Bush is assasinated or another "terrorist " strike against the empire happens,it is time for the fault lines to shake the citazens awake
You need to show the rest of the world that some of you are standing up to this bullying and lying
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 6:25 am PT...
Brad #28 --
We are trying to show everyone we know, as well as show them how they can find the facts themselves. Other than we the people here in the USA, the only existing opposition to the agenda is China. Were it not for the back and forth wrangling with China we would be fully involved already, despite the 9/11 screwup.
You should be aware that the agenda involves you as well and your countrymen in South Africa. No one is safe or immune.
BTW, your user name BRAD, belongs to the proprietor of this site. At least 6 or 7 of us would appreciate it if you use a different name. Thanks for your comments, keep coming back.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 6:51 am PT...
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 7:02 am PT...
I guess we can only hope the Avian Flu kills off the Chickenhawks FIRST!!
Is anyone here familiar with the WTC Janitor's story..(Rodriguez) He was down in the basement of the North tower when explosions were felt SEVERAL SECONDS before the plane hit, and with 14 witnesses he helped a badly burned man who was standing in front of the (Down)elevator when a fireball engulfed him, as well as pulling drowning people out of the flooding basement. I read there are hospital record from the burned man. Is this not another bombshell they are trying to bury? Please, anyone who can verify this story, let us know.
The story, by Greg Szymanski, was on globalnetnews-summary.
(Wish I had another link, but I could cut and paste the story upon request)
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 8:06 am PT...
Germany had a constitution, too!
Invest in Cattle cars, zyklon B and everything military! You'll make a killing while helping the killing!
But don't worry. We're from the government, and we're here to help. It will only hurt for a little while, and then everything will be much nicer.
Besides, if you aren't against the regime, you have nothing to worry about! Welcome to the Banana Republic of Carlyle, where Prince Bandar is the shadow minister.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 10:03 am PT...
# 10 PegC, GCHQ = UK Electronic Spying, they spy on US and then give the info to US NSA. [ More . . .]
#22/#26: Torqued, good points. They're still causing mischief.
There was a posting about immigation on Conyers blog. [ #14 to Sandra, #12] on that page left me thinking about some things.
Given the remarks are related to this topic, and I can't [yet] post on the Conyers blog, I thought I would share my thoughts with you. [more . . .]
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 10:50 am PT...
Big Dan #18
I have the same thoughts about The Hitler comparison as you. Jon Stewart was correct in noting that there is an overuse of that comparison but he fails to see that it is the Rove way.
The bushmob is too much like Hitlerian rise in the 1930's to be ignored. The Rove way is to counter accuse the opposition using mutiple voices and cloud the issue. It's origin is in the grade shools---
'You stink' , 'No you stink' exchange. A couple of those and the rest just concludes: 'They both stink'.
That is how the 'Swift boat' liars got rid of the AWOL issue.
Jon is right in that the exchange does deminish both sides. But that just makes it harder, it does not make it wrong and should open the door for more vocal comparisons of which there are many.
Too many !
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 11:54 am PT...
TORQUED#26- Yes, your take on it certainly does make sense. OMG!! I have read a lot regarding 9/11, and if you have any links or websites for me to read, It would be much appreciated! Thanx!! With what I have read so far, I was thinking those planes were remote controlled (which has control over pilots controls) so now I am wondering why they had to shoot it down.? Also, apparently and supposedly, 7 of the "hijackers have been found alive, I was really thinking there were no hijackers at all on those planes. Oh, the questions!! What do you think??
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 12:29 pm PT...
Dude, it’s pretty simple really. Just like the Thyssen and Bush family did before WWII, they’re doing it again.
Prescott Bush and the Thyssen’s set up banks in NYC to siphon off war profits from Germany. Then they funded (with Henry Ford’s support too) Hitler’s party, and then pushed it into war after war after war.
Hmm…. Carlyle group is the front… the Saudi’s are the partners, and the common denominator is…. Wait for it…
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 3:04 pm PT...
If you want more documented proof...
check out Prisonplanet.tv alex jones has been screaming it from the rooftops for years
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 3:14 pm PT...
m00000000000000000000000000000000000 here comes the gestapo
bahha baaah bar barrr barhhh
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
said on 7/1/2005 @ 6:49 pm PT...
john negropontia death sguad orginizer and cocaine operative in central america bushes daddy cocaine operative in central america. bumper crop of heroin and hashish from afganistan really bushes ally the northern alliance who are communist all american wars are fought in drug producing countries pays for the covert death squads and extra for government coffers really the power brokers you see you need the secret police to suppress hard working americans and takeout the compitition i feel really bad for you americans but my prime minister in canada is also one of our biggest cocaine importers i guess our secret police will be forming soon too keep the faith we will win in the long run remember so called our leaders are of the evil one
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 7:04 am PT...
More on the WTC Janitor's Story: CHECK OUT
( Janitor Rodriguez felt explosions from BELOW basement of North Tower BEFORE planes hit. 14 witnesses, burned man with hospital records, etc.)
It appears the suit is flawed by trying to cover too many bases, but it IS legit!
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 7:18 am PT...
MORE on this, from other witnesses, also alledging bombs below South Tower. (And we've all seen the "mysterious" way Building 7 went down!)
Maybe getting to the BOTTOM of 9/11 will be the ONLY way to stop Bush now that he has his own SS AND the Judiciary!
First-hand Accounts of Underground Explosions In The North Tower
Start Logic November 28 2004
This article from Chief Engineer magazine presents eyewitness account of the moments after the first plane crash, and describes evidence of large explosions in the lobby, parking garage and subbasement levels of WTC-1 at the time of the crash
It contains some fascinating first-hand accounts of the events of September 11 as recounted by operating engineers on the scene. One of the most remarkable is the story of Mike Pecoraro, who was working in the 6th sub-basement of the North Tower when the first plane hit. Here are some excerpts:
At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement, ate his breakfast and chatted with his co-workers who were also arriving for the normal 8:00 a.m. beginning of their shift. Mike’s assignment that day would be to continue constructing a gantry that would be used to pull the heads from the 2,500 ton chillers, located in the 6th sub- basement level of the tower. 49,000 tons of refrigeration equipment were located in the lower level of the tower. The 2,500 ton units were the smallest in use...
Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. “Did you see that?” he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. “You didn’t see the lights flicker?”, his co-worker asked again. “No,” Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building’s equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center’s equipment back on-line.
Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and “sit tight” until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. “We smelled kerosene,” Mike recalled, “I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs”, referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.
The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.
“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!” The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. “You could stand here,” he said, “and two inches over you couldn’t breathe. We couldn’t see through the smoke so we started screaming.” But there was still no answer.
The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. “There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can’t see anything” he said.
They decided to ascend two more levels to the building’s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil” and lying on the floor. “They got us again,” Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building’s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.
Consider the implications of what Mr. Pecoraro describes: At this point the only overt damage to the building was the plane crash some 95 floors above, which could not have caused violent explosions underground. Since the towers were anchored at the base to the bedrock the shaking caused by the crash would have been greatest close to the crash site, getting progressively weaker as it approached the rigid attachment at the bottom. Yet the underground damage he describes can not have been the result of a mere shaking - nothing short of an explosion could reduce the contents of a machine shop to rubble.
Damage to the North Tower Lobby
The damage to the parking garage and lobby simultaneous with the first plane impact are also indicative of the effects of high explosives, with widespread blast damage and fine dust covering the entire scene. Below is a link to a video clip of the WTC-1 lobby area just after the first plane crash, as seen in the documentary "9/11" made by Jules and Gedeon Naudet:
The narrator claims that he "later learned" that there had been an explosion caused by fuel pouring down an elevator shaft, but the lobby shows none of the soot or fuel residue we would expect from such an explosion. Instead we see blown-out windows and a fine dry dust covering the entire lobby, very much the signature of high explosives. Similar damage to the parking garages and subbasements can only be explained by pre-placed explosive charges that were detonated at the moment of the plane's impact.
Another account of underground blasts (For video, click here)
Construction worker Phillip Morelli describes being thrown to the ground by two explosions while in the fourth subbasement of the North Tower. The first, which threw him to the ground and seemed to coincide with the plane crash, was followed by a larger blast that again threw him to the ground and this time blew out walls. He then made his way to the South Tower and was in the subbasement there when the second plane hit, again associated with a powerful underground blast. This is one of a series of interviews with WTC survivors done by NY1 News: http://ny1.com/pages/RRR...11special_survivors.html
E mail your comment on this article to firstname.lastname@example.org and have it posted here.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 7:57 am PT...
Re: #35 Sarah --
I think there were people on all the planes that day. Though it is possible some sort of remote controlling devices were used on the planes, only human piloted planes could insure that the missions were carried out as planned. There are just too many unpredictable variables in an operation of the scope of 9/11 to succeed without human control of the planes.
Who was on those planes and were they piloted by the named terrorists? Who knows, they may have been or maybe not. The mountains of physical evidence and testimony of victims and witnesses are more productive avenues to the truth at this point. What is needed is independent inquiry that will never be... not today anyway.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 10:09 am PT...
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 10:12 am PT...
The greatest issue we face right now is whether or not a neocon will replace Justice O'Connor.
I trust we all understand the implications ... the secret police will be empowered if a neocon replaces her.
It would be absolutely destructive.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 10:51 am PT...
I hope you don't mind a Briton criticising the use of some of the arguments outlined here against the Bush administration, but any even whispered hint of implication about some of the stuff above mentioned smacks of the conspiracy theorists (sorry Torqued - though I wouldn't dream of calling you a tinfoil hatter ) It can sound two steps away from the alien nuts who keep going on about being beamed up and probed.
If you use the possible neocon intention of an all-out coup on the American government after 9/11, their supposed complicity in the 9/11 attack itself, their potential complicity with the illuminati, bilderbergers, bankers for world domination and world wars, the sometimes too close comparisons with Weimar republic turning to Nazi germany etc. - however justified any of that may be - but if used at the same time as the much more solid weight of evidence of wrong-doing with your election issues, the Iraq war, treatment of prisoners, double standards to terrorism etc., then it immeasurably weakens your position and can leave the more salient and provable points gasping for air, and as I said, it also leaves you open to being consigned to the level of all-out conspiracy crazies, since that is what the opponents of your argument will latch on to and pursue to the exclusion of the rest. Why give them a stick to beat you with?
I've read enough about the background to 9/11, bilderbergers etc., (many links gotten courtesy of you good people here) to agree that there is a lot to be suspicious about - but however much any of it might come to be proved in a hundred years time, there can be no possibility of substantiating it now enough to justify contaminating your otherwise wholely clean and solid argument with it. Even allowing it openly on the same platform is a danger to your stance in my opinion. There is enough solid evidence to make a strong case against them and I think that should be always focused on and continually promoted until the mainstream media start doing your job again and some action is taken against them for what can be proved. Only once you've won the first few battles decisively should you begin to think about widening the war.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 11:56 am PT...
I'm a little baffled at how simple minded people are so easily distracted by the "conspiracy nut" label. I mean, this is one example of how they can have it both ways.
If I point out a situation where elected officials have agreed to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act, I'm crazy, and therefore nobody listens to me.
However, if I agree to perform an illegal act, *I* can go to jail.
Which is it? Are conspiracies a legal term defining an agreement between two or more parties to engage in illegal activities, or a crazy plot dreamed up by raving lunatics? It can't be both ways. Really, can it?
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 11:59 am PT...
Let's stop calling scepticsm about 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Instead let's say those who truly believe faith based idiots. Let's call insurgents in Iraq patriots. Pat Buchannan agrees with the patriot idea.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 2:25 pm PT...
I think everyone who has a dictionary knows the definition of conspiracy and anyone who has read any history knows how it can come about and can postulate potential outcomes. But the right wing (even nice respectable sweet little American moms and grannies, as I found out recently) trot that pejorative response out as a defence of their beliefs at the mere mention of more rational argument. The trouble is they can and do have it both ways - all I say to you is, why play into their hands? drop it entirely and argue from another perspective to wrong-foot them. Stick to the most basic points which can be proved and which some would be more willing to acknowledge and then work up to any and all 'conspiracies' when they can be proved beyond doubt until even the majority of them must accept it. I don't argue semantics or ideologies only tactics.
My point was, of course, that your right-wing opponents won't stop mocking scepticism about 9/11 and the rest, nor will they stop using it to disparage the rest of the arguments against them. There is absolutely nothing wrong and everything right with being sceptical about everything and questioning everything, but carrying it slightly further and postulating any hypotheticals for what may be behind a collection of interesting but possibly disparate facts is damaging to the central core of the stance against them and it is imperative that that central argument wins out. I personally don't believe it can be won with a thinner spread, multi-faceted attack much of which cannot be proven. It's much better to concentrate on winning one sustained concrete victory against them at a time.
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
said on 7/2/2005 @ 11:06 pm PT...
Sound advice. But what are the "basic points which can be proved"?
I have not seen any. I know where some of them may be--locked up in secret locations. To be shredded if not already disposed of.
The unfortunate fact is that 911 was not explained and was not investigated. The evidence was disposed of without forensic evaluation---like the 47 Steel beams sent to the orient, videos of the Pentagon taken by the FBI.
What we are stuck with is 'best guess hypotheticals',
Of course 'they' mock. Wouldn't it be more simple to release the information and put the questions to rest? So why do they not? The 'hypothetical' answer to that is that 'they' do not want us to know the truth. Isn't that a strong indication of "Conspiracy"?
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
said on 7/3/2005 @ 8:00 am PT...
If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, floats like a turd, it probably IS one! And we're up to our necks in the Elephant poop.
Forget the Tinfoil, this is the only sane explanation for all the discrepancies in the "official" version of 9/11. And since it is pivotal, both for their siezure of power and our loss of Constitutional freedoms, it is especially important to keep after it. We don't HAVE "a hundred years" to get this story straight: we need to do it nOW, before it happens again. There's PLENTY of Evidence; it just needs to be HEARD.
We are more "Unsafe" than ever, ESPECIALLY now that the Evil Chimp's numbers are down so far again. Like Frank Rich says, but does not precisely mention in his "War of the Worlds" piece in the NYTimes today... it's too much like the "Lazy summer of 2001" . And another "Terrorist Attack" will be JUST what Bush & Co. NEED to get us where they want us: Scared and Stupid enough to follow HIM anywhere he wants to take us next. Like Iran or Syria. Keep your Rad pills (Potassium Iodide) ready, folks. These Power-crazed Neocons won't relinquish their grip easily!
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
said on 7/3/2005 @ 6:42 pm PT...
I think another staged terrorist attack, at this point, would actually be a bad idea, even for these operators. I think they're already teetering on the edge of total exposure.
It seems like they're in damage control mode at this point. They realize the country is waking up, people are no longer complacently toeing the line with Iraq, the secret police is a start at scaring people enough to wake them up to the facts.
I think they're only in it for the money anyway, so they'll just milk Iraq for what it's worth, and then count their losses.
I just hope indictments and death sentences eventually get handed out to the whole lot. It would be small consolation for the bushes and their partners dragging us into WWII and this new world war that never quite materialized like they had hoped.
One thing I don't think they realize is that once they've driven this country into the ground in their pursuit of vast wealth, there will not be an entire government and laws to protect them. People that used to be paid to protect them will take it upon themselves to hunt them down like dogs. Now that they've built up the uniformed Secret Service into a full scale paramilitary force, with chevy blazers that have shooting platforms that fold out from the passenger side, and street sweepers and squad automatics, etc, when they are no longer the power holders, these guys will use their new toys and skills to exact revenge for being betrayed by their "leader".
Just imagine, a "rogue" team of former (or still active) secret service agents combing the world for all the bushes and all the carlyle shareholders. They could rendition them off to some third country, and then we'd never hear from them again. 80 years of criminal and extra-legal activity, put to a violent end. That would be nice
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
said on 7/3/2005 @ 7:15 pm PT...
as for the iraqi insurgents. Since they are killing my fellow citizens, I wouldn't want to go so far as to call them patriots. But I certainly don't consider them to be "evildoers" or opposed to democracy and freedom. I consider them to be people that have strong nationalistic ideas and identities, responding to a foreign invader. Call them the white blood cells of their nation. They are attacking a foreign body.
I just know that if someone comes into my house that I don't want in my house, then I'm going to do everything at my disposal to get them to leave. I will pound on them and beat them and hit them with a baseball bat until they leave or they kill me. That's just natural. How could you expect anything else?
I'd still choose to kill the insurgent, if I was in a situation to choose which one should die, or more rightfully, I would never have put my compatriots in that situation in the first place. But then again, I don't get to see my portfolio jump in value every time a new batch of military equipment needs to be procured. Maybe if I was heavily invested in military contractor stocks, I'd want us to be in a half-dozen more countries burning up our military stocks! Wait, sorry, I forgot, I have morals and values. I have integrity. I can choose to make my money without requiring that others must die. So I guess I would just never do something as atrocious and despicable as the bush family has been doing since the 1920's.
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
said on 7/4/2005 @ 10:32 am PT...
Cole - yes, if forced to agree, I'd say that at least some of the 'conspiracy theories' must be true and probably a larger number of them might be true - but that doesn't mean I'd be naive enough to use that in an argument with any republicans I know. And it certainly doesn't make sense to try to use that politically since 'they' seem so entrenched now.
Until something more than tenuous links surface for the more outrageous accusations it's best not to be too clear in joining the dots for something which, as you say, can have no proof yet. If there can't be proof then you can't make an effective argument: without effective argument it's useless in attacking them. And since they are so entrenched it means you will have to play by their rules, but there's nothing inherently disadvantageous about that, and if you beat them on their own turf it is a more resounding and convincing victory.
Any incontrovertible evidence which may come for 9/11 I would guess would be more likely human evidence - for if there are two or more people involved in burying the body then the murder facts do come into the open eventually. Until then we'd have more success in holding them accountable, though, for Iraq. Should another government get in and join the ICC along with the rest of us (or at least not actively campaign to undermine it as they do now) and, if charges by that court can be made retroactive, then they could be brought to account. To me that seems a much more achievable objective. Either way though, you Americans are the only ones who can bring them down, so please don't blow it.
By 'basic points' I meant the Iraq war, both how it started and how it has been managed; the election issues which are dodgy at best, criminal at worst; the brazenly hypocritical stance towards terrorism, where you have them going after Iraq in the way they did, yet you have them recently chauffeuring Salah Abdallah Gosh by plane to a cosy visit in Washington and back - and Sudan is a country and a regime which Bush, prior to the election, was quick to accuse of genocide, yet while going on about what bad devils Saddam and the terrorists are, they now cosy up with that regimes henchman; there is also the lobbying and threatening countries to ignore the ICC agreements they signed if it concerns America, etc. - all those things can be more readily proved to be downright crooked and unlawful, as well as at odds with the christian humbug spouted daily, and those in themselves make a substantial argument to win. By winning that argument you could be successful in getting them ousted.
The close ties with the military contractors mentioned by Baffled Citizen is something which, though disgusting, isn't of itself illegal - except for all the shady dealings with Halliburton of course. But the arms trade is still considered a highly legitimate business. Though I was sickened, as many were, that at the time of 9/11, when other public and sports events etc. were being cancelled over here immediately afterwards as a mark of respect, the one glaring exception was the Arms Fair which still went ahead as planned; but still, though sickening, it was legal. And you'll forgive my saying so, but we don't understand the logic of a country where, to combat socially disturbed youngsters going into classrooms and killing pupils, it can be advocated the arming of teachers as the answer rather than the outlawing of guns. That just makes no sense to us, even knowing of your right to bear arms.
If they did commit 9/11, that would obviously be the best argument to win of all and would be pivotal to all the rest - but you don't have anything concrete on it yet and maybe never will have and it sounds far fetched to the middle ground republican voter you need to win over. To be honest, it sounds far fetched at times to me, though I admit giving credence to some of it, and I hate Bush at least as much as you can. You need mid-ground republicans, and by that argument you won't get them. The mere thought of it makes that middle American mom complicit in an atrocity against her own nation and countrymen by her continued support for the perpetrators - now how could a mid-American mom or grandad be guilty of that when they go to church every week and are basically decent people? They can't believe that. They have to come over to your argument about Iraq and elections first - but if the conspiracies are what the opposition concentrate on most, then I fear the opposition may be crying in the wilderness for the next hundred years.
I'd direct anyone to go to the Kristen Breitweiser thread, read again her words and learn from her. The fact she's a victim of 9/11 and a former Bush supporter made her stance strong, but no matter how strong her credentials, had she gone on to write about 9/11 being an inside job, how the government wanted to stage a coup, etc., her argument wouldn't have been half as effective and she would have been open to derision by them because of it. Instead she wisely made a controlled and sustained assault with facts, she showed little emotion and no hyperbole, she used their own documented words and proven actions against them, she continued hitting them with volley after well-aimed volley which must have done damage. The neocon opposition, whatever shade they may be, I think needs to follow her example more closely. Afterall, the world is counting on your success in this.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
said on 7/5/2005 @ 10:32 am PT...
You're right. The arms trade is a legitimate business. No question. So is the energy business that Enron was engaged it. But it's how they conduct their business that is shady, or worse, criminal.
Seeking office for the explicit goal of sending troops into harms way to boost sales, that's pretty much abhorrent behavior.
But, that's a Bush modus operandi. After G Sr.'s business partner's son shot Reagan, and I'm sure G Sr. made it clear after the fact that the next bullet would be dead-on, he proceeded to conduct all of his black-ops in the central american drug trade, sent troops to Panama to kill off the competition, convinced an Iraqi despot to invade a nation and then turned around and attacked him back. All for profit. Nothing more, nothing less. Simply profit.
And they're doing it again.
Whether they wanted 9/11 to happen, or had anything to do with it, or if they just got damn lucky that it happened, really doesn't matter --- the fact is, this family and their cohorts always seem to be involved when the shit hits the fan. Heck, this one time, a long time ago, 6 million jews died as a result of their business dealings. DAMN.
Of course, a good question that should always be asked when things go wrong is this: "Who benefits?" I find it hard to believe that Osama Bin Laden truly benefited from 9/11, other than in the abstract. The Bush crew, on the other hand, has benefited ENORMOUSLY from 9/11. That to me is the biggest implicator of all.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
said on 7/5/2005 @ 6:09 pm PT...
Oh yea, I forgot to address the remarks about "close ties to the military contractors".
These aren't ties. These are direct investments. Carlyle group, which Mr. Misinformation Moore helped obfuscate through his supposedly anti-bush movie (you know he's working FOR them, don't you?) --- Carlyle group is a real problem, even though Michael Moore helped divert attention away from it... Look who's on the board. Look what they invest in. Look where we are today. Any questions?
Basically, they realized they had missed out on a whole stream of revenue after the first gulf war, so they got together and started an investment firm. Carlyle Group. Baker, Bush, Weinberger, Prince Bandar, the Saudi Bin-Laden Group, and more, pooled their money so they could get in on the kitty the next time the US goes off on some military expedition.
I guess it wasn't going to be long after that for them to decide the most expedient way to see those profits roll in was to be in power and ensure the US would be in a few wars.
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
said on 7/10/2005 @ 5:12 pm PT...
June 29, 2005
The Honorable Michael Chertoff, Secretary
U.S. Department of Homeland Security
Washington, D.C. 20528
Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20530-0001
Dear Secretary Chertoff and General Gonzales:
Recent behavior by agents of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security / Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Division – acting in the jurisdiction of U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton – constituted a violation of the U.S. Constitutional right of a free press.
I write you to plead that you put a stop to this kind of outrageous activity in each of your departments and to take measures to prevent such actions from occurring in the future.
On May 24, 2005, Agents Carlos Salazar and Steve White of ICE’s Office of Professional Responsibility unit visited the San Antonio, Texas, workplace of journalist Bill Conroy in a very unprofessional attempt to intimidate Mr. Conroy into revealing sources of non-classified information and documents embarrassing to the Department and to the U.S. Attorney’s office for the San Antonio, Texas, region. Agent Salazar, with another agent, additionally went to the home of Mr. Conroy and behaved in an intimidating manner toward the journalist’s wife and children.
More troubling, still, is that the agents attempted to intimidate his employer at a business newspaper that had nothing to do with Mr. Conroy’s reports for the Internet newspaper Narco News.
I attach, for your information, printouts of reports from the San Antonio Current and Narco News about those incidents: “Unwelcome Guests,” by Lisa Sorg (San Antonio Current, June 9), and “Customs Cops Visit Journalist Bill Conroy in an Attack on Press Freedom,” by Al Giordano (Narco News, May 24). Also included in the attachment are additional news stories on the incidents published by the Federation of American Scientists’ Project on Government Secrecy and the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, and a June 3 letter from the Federal Hispanic Law Enforcement Officers Association to Secretary Chertoff protesting these activities.
In particular, General Gonzales, I address this letter to you because many eyebrows have been raised here in Congress by the confluence of facts that demonstrate that Mr. Conroy, as a journalist, has reported a series of stories involving the “House of Death” case in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, in which an undercover informant in the process of seeking to make a drug case for U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton’s office, allegedly committed numerous homicides while under the protection of that office.
Since it is well known throughout Washington that federal agents do not, as a rule, visit journalists in attempts to discover sources without authorization from the U.S. Attorney with jurisdiction, the behavior of the agents is seen as an attempt by U.S. Attorney Sutton to intimidate a journalist who has reported facts that are embarrassing to him.
According to Mr. Conroy’s publisher at the San Antonio Business Journal, agents Salazar and White told him that a document published by Mr. Conroy on Narco News, embarrassing to the Department of Homeland Security, was not classified but that the agents were seeking to find out the identity of the source out of a purely speculative fear that Mr. Conroy’s source “might leak classified documents in the future.”
This kind of speculative fishing expedition on the part of federal agents would be troubling under most circumstances. When it involves a transparent attempt to pressure an employer to fire his reporter for what the journalist reported for any publication (much more for a distinct publication) the threat to the First Amendment, which I know that both of you gentlemen have sworn to uphold, is clear, and it makes a mockery of the important work that both of your offices are doing in law enforcement.
The Internet publication for which Mr. Conroy reports, The Narco News Bulletin (www.narconews.com) is one of the most widely respected international news sources reporting on U.S. policy on the Mexican border and throughout Latin America. In December 2001, the New York Supreme Court ruled that: “Narco News, its website, and the writers who post information, are entitled to all the First Amendment protections accorded a newspaper-magazine or journalist.”
Thus, if U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton or the ICE agents were under a misimpression that Internet journalists do not enjoy the same First Amendment protections as commercial newspapers, I hope you will educate them to this new reality under law.
Thank you for your attention to this matter of deep concern.
U.S. Representative, Fourth District – Georgia
CC: Michael J. Garcia
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
425 I St., NW
Washington, D.C., 20536
Johnny Sutton, U.S. Attorney
United States Attorney’s Office
601 NW Loop 410, Suite 600
San Antonio,Texas 78216
Agents Carlos Salazar and Steve White
Office of Professional Responsibility
Immigration and Customs Enforcement
45 NE Loop 410, Suite 600
San Antonio, TX 78216
Members of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee
Members of the News Media
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
said on 7/11/2005 @ 12:45 pm PT...
Pfft. Welcome to Bush's Amerika. I was telling a neighbor the other day that because I'm a patriot, I did NOT vote for Bush! (Or Kerry for that matter.) I voted Constitution Party.
I for one would love to see Bush impeached, removed from office, charged with treason, and thrown in the hoosegow--maybe a nice one down in Gitmo! And his cronies with him!
I'm 32 years old. This is not the America I grew up in. America--Land of the Free IN NAME ONLY!!!
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
said on 7/11/2005 @ 6:06 pm PT...
I did vote for Bush, but for the following reasons. I did not want Europe or the Middle Eastern Countries telling us who to elect. I thought if there was no meat to the WOMD issue Americans would impeach the guy. Well there is no beef and the guy appears to be emulating the Nazi regime. Secret police, reorg of military, new homeland defense org...etc. The item that concerns me the most is if he can stack the Supreme Court with his people, the Bushs could redefine democracy. The Supreme Court is the law in the USA, we don't have an appeal of the Supreme Court...do we?
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
said on 7/11/2005 @ 6:11 pm PT...
Oh yeah! What about the stories of our agents abducting terrorist on foreign soil. Where is the due process and the constitution. I am not for terrorism, but I am for democracy and our Constitution.
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
said on 7/13/2005 @ 6:56 pm PT...
Yeah, we do have an appeal of the Supreme Court. It's called the second amendment.
Keep in mind, the constitution is a document outlining our governance. They put the right to bear arms in there to act as the peoples' check against the government.
The people always maintain the right to overthrow a tyrannical government. One that does not serve the people, the people shall overthrow.
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
said on 8/13/2005 @ 11:58 am PT...
Chemtrails implicated in directed energy weather control, mind control, surveillance, and torture of American citizens.
Hope they investigate this right along with the war crimes. Treason.
Targeted individuals all across this country and in NATO countries.
Maybe someone should investigate NATO, too.
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
said on 8/13/2005 @ 12:00 pm PT...
chemtrails implicated in the torture of Americans and NATO citizens --- investigate high officials authorizing this, too
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
Bad Boys Bad Boys
said on 2/11/2006 @ 3:43 pm PT...
The Secret Police really do exist. They are off duty cops that live in your community and they work miles away from their homes. However they will run background checks on you and your neighbors and they are always the first ones to call the local cops on you for any reason. It sounds a lot like how Russia and China use to be.
Their kids think that they can mess with people in your neighborhood and get away with it just because their daddys a cop. You'll hear crap like "My dads going to put you away or you can't do anything to me because my dads a cop"
I had a neighbor/cop tell me once that he could have me arrested and put in jail just for the hell of it! "Just for the hell of it!" I use to have total respect for policemen but everyone that I have ever met so far is dishonest and makes you feel like they are above the law.
Please post your comments so others can see that I'm not alone on this one. And cops please don't post to say that we're not all like that because the majority of you are and you know it. As a matter of fact if you had any balls you would admit that at least one or more times in your career you have put yourself above the law. You have taken someone down out of anger just to show them. I remember when there was a popular saying "To serve and protect" Yea, todays cops are more like "Serve us and protect yourself" (From us!)