READER COMMENTS ON
"Back to Delay and Abramoff..."
(17 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 1:37 am PT...
The sad part of this insane scathing indictment, is the fear that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales will attempt to whitewash it and cover-up the crimes as he did with the Election Fraud.
Since Alberto Gonzales is not an impartial man nor stable to be running things, a letter should be forwarded directly to the DoJ to force Gonzales to recuse himself immediately from investigations.
Whether they be concerning elections or lobbyists crimes, Mr. Gonzales is a very sick and bad choice to be heading up the investigation. Make certain that he is recused and do what Bob Fitrakis did.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 2:48 am PT...
It might help everybody to uh, post the email for the Department of Justice.
Urge them very strongly to have this guy Gonzales step out of the way. Lets make sure Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff and anyone else needing to go to jail definitely goes straight to jail.
Oh and also, by wednesday make that perp Karl Rove sign a waiver.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 3:45 am PT...
DELAY, ABRAMOFF AND OUR FOUNDING FATHERS
I'm not sure which Free Press article you meant to link to. All the articles share the same link.
I decided to check out Norman Solomon's "Mourn on the Fourth of July" article, simply because it was one of the ones I hadn't read yet.
I'm glad I read it.
For example, I never realized that " George Washington was America’s richest man. And he had a record as a land speculator that makes Donald Trump seem like a penny-ante developer. After the Revolutionary War, as author Howard Zinn points out in “A People’s History of the United States,” Washington used his enormous wealth and power to snap up vast tracts of land. "
Further down Solomon observes, "Turning a blind eye to ugly aspects of the past can be a bad habit that carries over into the present: Too often, journalists focus on P.R. facades (old or new) and pay little attention to the people left out of the pretty picture. . . . Most of the delegates who gathered in Philadelphia to draw up the Constitution were wealthy. And they “were determined that persons of birth and fortune should control the affairs of the nation and check the ‘leveling impulses’ of the propertyless multitude that composed ‘the majority faction,’” writes political scientist Michael Parenti.
"In his book “Democracy for the Few,” Parenti notes: “The delegates spent many weeks debating their interests, but these were the differences of merchants, slave owners, and manufacturers, a debate of haves vs. haves in which each group sought safeguards within the new Constitution for its particular concerns.” . . . “there were no dirt farmers or poor artisans attending the convention to proffer an opposing viewpoint. The debate between haves and have-nots never occurred.” And “the delegates repeatedly stated their intention to erect a government strong enough to protect the haves from the have-nots.”
Solomon concludes his piece at www.freepress.org by suggesting that journalists should be more accurate and not just repeat "fawning myths", saying it might shed more light on our current leaders.
How true. The more things change, the more they stay the same. It's ironic to think that DeLay and Abramoff might have fit right in with our founding fathers in their eagerness to ensure they were the ones to profiteer, amidst their noble and inspiring words. Sobering thoughts indeed.
I realize that "things were different then." All the same, maybe this time around we can do better, build on the lofty ideals of the Founding Fathers and eventually create a more inclusive and just society.
That's probably going to take monetary reform in addition to election reform, campaign financing reform and political reform. It all goes to show how hard it is going to be to get the money out of politics.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 6:28 am PT...
Catherine A, #3:
Washington married money. He was not a shark, he was not a cheat, he was not greedy, he was not ego-driven, and he was not power-hungry. To hear his name slurred by a conflation with that of the bottom-feeder Tom Delay is a greater insult to the human spirit than anything I've ever heard from Rush Limbaugh and his multitude of imitators. As for the rest of those white-skinned, land-and-slave-owning Founders, before you have the audacity to subtly slander them, you should study your history and understand--hopefully--that they laid their lives on the line for eternal truths in a way none of us today dare. Some were caught and tortured, some executed, and some lost their families and fortunes and died in abject poverty. I realize that nobility is a lost virtue, but let's not forget it did once hold sway over men's minds.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 9:31 am PT...
"Nobility" - thanks for using that word, Unirealist. One doesn't have to be poor to be noble.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 9:47 am PT...
Is that the same Ney involved in the Ohio Coin Scandal?
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
It can be good to look at issues from many sides, not just with rose-tinted glasses. When I come across a different point of view than what I'm accustomed to hearing/thinking/believing, it can be useful to consider it. It helps keep the mind open.
In "history" there is a huge deficit in what information gets passed down and what doesn't.
If Solomon's source is accurate, Washington appears to have been something of an opportunist who was looking out for his own interests. (Not exclusively this, but in part.) Not the end of the world, and you're right he's not in the same category as Delay--at least I sure hope not. It's important not to paint him as some model of unselfish perfection which he wasn't. I think this was Solomon's point.
Did our Founding Fathers replace one elite with another? Possibly. Did they express great and noble ideas? I think so. Were they angels of moral purity and selfless in their political deeds? Probably not. Did I stretch things too far to make my point? Perhaps. (Definitely, from your point of view.) I didn't intend equate Delay with Washington as you suggest, but to observe that there may be some points in common, and that creating an icon out of Washington may not be accurate reflection of the real man. Delay probably has some redeeming qualitites as a human being, but that doesn't mean I think he's suited for public life or a position of trust or responsibility. (I'll try not to judge him, but I sure would never vote for him.)
"History" is a funny thing. It is highly selective and biased, and dependent on the perspective and motive of whoever wrote it. Truth is rarely as black-and-white as we make things out to be.
Considering provocative counter-opinions can sometimes help reveal where our minds are getting encrusted, or where we're hanging onto a myth or half-truth. It's rarely comfortable to question deeply cherished beliefs or assumptions. I think it can be healthy to consider a radically different point of view from time to time, as a kind of reality check.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
Dr. Alan H. Levinson
said on 7/6/2005 @ 12:46 pm PT...
"Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho, Jericho...Joshua fought the battle of Jericho...and the walls came a tumblin down".
I think song was written by Gods Chosen just for this occassion!!
Bush et.al., Your higher 'Father" acknowledges all of your accomplishments, both good and bad, and you will receive your just rewards!
I'll visit you and your pals in Sing-Sing.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 1:27 pm PT...
Safe as last. Lord god almighty safe at last in the warm, friendly, confines of the Department of Justice, Whitewash Division.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 6:32 pm PT...
Catherine A, Unirealist, Peg C
I'm sure we don't want to draw these threads into too much discussion of history (although an historical perspective will always increase the depth of our understanding and sympathies.)
The founders certainly did comprise a class of educated, wealthy elite. It was actually a very big step from the tired class system of previous centuries. The basis of our government and ideals was the liberal enlightenment that was, without question, based on wealth, education, and the "complete man". (Not much emphasis on women, but many women did partake of and help fashion the spirit of the enlightenment.) As a moral and intellectual way of life and thought, it certainly did produce "nobility". Any in-depth study of Washington would reveal it. (Many of his contemporaries considered him the epitome of nobility.)
I don't think anyone would ever use the term "noble" for Tom DeLay. It's laughable, of course. Neither would an educated person use the term "sleaze" in regard to Washington, regardless of his or her views of his strengths and weaknesses. (Catherine A - I'm not saying that you did. It's good to discuss these things. Thanks Unirealist for identifying the key concept of nobility.)
I think we are far beyond setting up our founders as deities. They were people, of course. Nor did they have the benefit of witnessing or participating in future history.
There has been class conflict in America and mini-revolutions that shaped our culture, and it is unproductive to focus on the founding of the nation as the complete holy script, however much it is truly central and noble. Some of my own ancestors vigorously fought the entrenched elite as participants in the "Whiskey Rebellion" in western Pennsylvania. Later the "Jacksonian" era was the time of a major mini-rebellion, and if you look into it closely, you will find amazing and productive parallels to our time and clear lessons to be learned regarding wealth concentration and so on.
Shut up, Arry. You are free-associating again and opening up an expanding flood of ideas and verbiage. Mainly, I guess, I am returning to a concept that always eventually re-arrives. Nobility...let's see...morality...moral nature...moral being. Our society has become so commodified that it is difficult to see beneath the surface to what is really important and makes humans human - moral struggle. - not the illusion of being "Brand Moral".
(I will attempt to stay on topic.)
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 7:39 pm PT...
My fear is that DeLay will be a scapegoat. He is very unpopular and unlikable - the perfect one to go down.
He well deserves it, of course, but he's a low-life criminal. Crimes of historical importance are still being perpetrated and praised. Going after DeLay may make it look like they are really doing something and that they have some kind of ethical principles.
Did I read today - I swear I did - that Gonzales may be considered to fill Sandra Day O'Connor's seat on the Supreme Court? Here's a way to show his "serious" nature.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 7/6/2005 @ 8:45 pm PT...
There's a perfect reason for Harry Reid wanting Gonzales on the SCOTUS.....To shred all remaining credibility of the WH, once and for all. If Gonzales is appointed, a shitstorm in-fighting war unlike ever seen will erupt with the conservatives, religious fundies and others against the White House.
Meanwhile, a shitstorm beyond shit storms is happening around Downing Street. Tom DeLay will go down but we have the tip of the iceberg, as you read below.
When I saw this story, I started dovetailing my research efforts to see just what in the hell was going on with Karl Rove's friend Lewis Libby.
More on the front page of http://waynemadsenreport.com
Apparently they put america in harm's way directly and committed treason, in order to send a message to those who would whistle blow on the manufacturing of evidence.
Niger-Gate is related to the forging of documents in order to give USA authority to go to war, and Joseph Wilson along with his friends were exposing this fraud.
In addition to this the democratic BOE members in Ohio could face criminal prosecution, for deliberately covering up a city of fraud and lying to officials about what they were doing. These folks fired Sherole Eaton and are now being forced to accept her back on the Board of Elections along with possible resignations.
Witness the telltale chart of 2004 fraud in a scathing, ugly linear regression graph
Yes, this was just the beginning.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 7/7/2005 @ 1:38 am PT...
And if we want to get folks like Bush & Delay out (and stop folks like them from getting "elected" in the first place), then we can't afford to ignore the breaking news about Diebold. We have got to clamor for a product recall and for serious changes to our broken-down election system.
The lack of discussion here about the Diebold revelations is deafening--like the elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring.
See summary and links here.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 7/7/2005 @ 4:42 am PT...
Agreed about Diebold!!!
Everyone needs to issue a full on product recall, or these insane nuts will be able to makeup a computer which tells the judge "how many days" Tom DeLay can spend in prison according to the bill of rights.
Everything in those machines is a fraud. RECALL all Diebold optiscan products, or we will have a FIRESTORM to deal with!!!
On the SCOTUS, I bet a civil-war within the GOP is what is bound to erupt after Gonzales is confirmed.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 7/7/2005 @ 7:37 am PT...
The bombs in London seem rather convenient. What a disctraction from the G8 issues such as 3rd world debt, & climate change, not to mention inconvient home affairs such as the Delay Abramoff situation coming unglued, the voting machine scandal erupting, etc.
Now it's back to "terrorism" focus, which is much more comfortable for Bush & Blair. I feel deeply suspicious about these attacks and who is really behind them. Maybe it really is arab extremists who rightly want Britian out of Iraq. But on the other hand there could be other hands behind the arab hands, pulling the strings.
We must do all we can not to let the political scandals in the USA be ignored due to what is happening in London. The morning of 9/11 was when the independent count of Florida votes reported that Gore had actually won. Those results got buried in the rubble of 9/11. We can't let this happen again.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 7/7/2005 @ 12:46 pm PT...
No, please don't shut up. You clarified what I was trying to express. Thanks so much. Catherine A. had a point, and I think you have clarified that very well, too.
Flawed as those Founding Fathers may have been, they did strive to realize the noblest ideas of the Enlightenment. It is too bad that the Enlightenment is now over, and we must cope with creatures like Bush and Delay et. al.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 7/7/2005 @ 12:49 pm PT...
Re the SCOTUS appointment--do you sense a civil war a-brewin'?