Yes... The More the Better

and Thank U, Brad & Staff...

RogerART.com

PS, Jail the Bush Gangsters Tonight...

VEry lame blog, all things considered. I'm embarrassed for some of the folks who spew their socialist crap on this blog.

I'm embarrassed for Ken who spews his ignorant, discredited, shrub-loving crap on this blog and, no doubt, wherever his ilk are allowed to lurk.

I love this blog! I say the more the merrier. Thanks Brad for all you do and A great big Thank You to all the guest bloggers and assorted posters. Impeach all the imposters because truly thats all they are, Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld Rice,Card, Rove and our new and improved heads of both Homeland Insecurity CHERTOFF, and last but not the evilest FEMA lying head BROWNIE.

The guest bloggers have been great. I love David Edwards' intelligent passion. Joe Cannon is just the bomb, and cross-linking between the two blogs is a great idea. And of course Winter Patriot rules with his borderline rants

That said, while I recognize the importance of the Sheehan coverage, I've missed the regular Brad posts and particularly attention to election reform issues.

So welcome back (eventually) Brad, and yes, let's by all means keep the guest bloggers, too!

I second that emotion.

Dangerous Incompetence

A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
by Cindy Sheehan

George Bush has been an incompetent failure his entire life.

Fortunately, for humanity, he was just partying his way through school, running companies into the ground and being an alcoholic and cocaine abuser for most of that time and his incompetence was limited to hurting the people who worked for him and his own family. The people in his life who were hurt by his incompetence probably have been able to "get on" with their lives. Now, though, his incompetence affects the world and is responsible for so many deaths and so much destruction. How many of us did not foresee the mess he would make of the world when he was selected the first time? We saw what he had done to Texas. How many of us marvelled and were so discouraged and amazed when he was "re-elected" the second time? We saw what he had done to the world. Dangerous incomptence should never be rewarded, let alone be rewarded so handsomely as in George's case.

I just posted this at DailyKOS: "Rebuilding & Convergence"

http://www.dailykos.com/...nly/2005/9/6/102826/1695

How do you explain FEMA's abysmal response to Hurricane Katrina only one year after its swift action in the four storms of 2004?

Well, Louisiana isn't Florida. And Kathleen Blanco isn't Jeb Bush.

For the full story on the politics of Bush-era disaster relief, see:

"FEMA: Florida Election Management Agency."

Whoops - forgot to encode the link...

http://www.dailykos.com/...1695">Rebuilding & Convergence

We should start talking about things to do with rebuilding, before the decision to further disposses the refugees can be made and imposed.

The link above provides some food for thought - about doing it right. The first time.

Many are condemning the federal government which bu$hit does not seem to realize he is a part of. He is going to head up a commission to investigate what went "right" and what went "wrong". Gag me.

Conservatives are condemning it too ... but they also were part of it.

And the truth is coming out. The bu$hit administration WORKED HARD ... against money to fix and improve the levees ... and "fired" a conservative republican senator who advocated such improvements on behalf of the Corps of Engineers:

"Just as serious, the President’s priorities, his indifference to questions of infrastructure and the environment, magnified an already complicated disaster. In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army Corps of Engineers’ funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million, delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans levees. Former Republican congressman Michael Parker was forced out as the head of the Corps by Bush in 2002 when he dared to protest the lack of proper funding.

(link here, emphasis added).

Quote of the week, as reported here:

The Jefferson Parish president, Aaron Broussard, told CBS news that government would have to be held accountable for what had happened.

"Bureaucracy has murdered people in the greater New Orleans area and bureaucracy needs to stand trial before congress today," he said.

"Take whatever idiot they have at the top, give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot."

People have been knowingly building/buying thousands of homes below sea level in the New Orleans for decades. Every informed person in America knew the catastrophe would come eventually.

The left wing socialists cannot comprehend that people have some responsibility for their own safety. Instead, they want centralized power in the hands of a strong federal DEMOCRATIC president, so he can save them all from their stupidity.

Can't be done. When you have stupid people doing stupid things en masse, and encourage their stupid behavior with subsidies, what more can you expect than tragedy?

I predict New Orleans will be pumped out, rebuilt, and then destroyed again. The same crybaby socialists sobbing now will be sobbing then.

The smart people will have moved to higher ground, leaving a vast lower class of low IQ welfare people who are don't read the paper, watch PBS, or even understand that water flows downhill.

Competence and integrity have nothing to do with left-wing/right-wing politics. Injecting these into a post-mortem debate about Hurricane Katrina is dishonest and stupid.

Socialism is the opposite of capitalism. It is not the opposite of incompetence. George W. Bush is incompetent. If he were a liberal Democrat, he'd be no less so. Political affiliations have nothing to do with intelligence or character...neither of which Bush has enough of to fill a thimble.

Run more open threads.

Remember how they brainwashed and shamed us into being too embarrassed about comparing the Bush administration to Hitler (but not me)? Well, read this:

Former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury on New Orleans: "Americans Are Being Brainwashed"
Mentality is "like that of the brown shirts that followed Hitler"

click here

Robert,

Agreed. Incompetence is letting 255 schoolbuses sit idle, as the levies slowly filled the city. Plenty of time was available to get the buses full of welfare blacks and pointed north.

Where was the plan to do so? Wasn't one. Where were the drivers? Weren't any.

The mayor hasn't even been asked these questions yet. He's too busy lambasting Bush for inaction. Was Bush supposed to fly down to New Orleans himself and crash the locked gate to free the school buses?

Was he supposed to drive all 255 buses himself?

Yes, incompetence indeed, Robert. The president is not in charge of New Orleans (non) evacuation plan. If this is not the job of the mayor, what, pray tell is?

That's a question, Robert.

Mayor Nagin's lies are beginning to come unravelled. A picture is out now showing several hundred schoolbuses sitting unused, with DRY pavement extending all the way to the superdome full of evacuees.

This is before the flooding.

Mayor Nagin simply had no plan, and is lashing out at anyone who will listen, mainly the venomous left.

This fiasco is no more Bushes fault than it is Bill Clinton's fault, or Jimmy Carter's fault. New Orleans has been building tens of thousands of homes below sea level for decades, IN SPITE OF warnings that the levees will not withstand any more than a Cat 3 hurricane.

A Cat 5 comes along, and what is the result? Nothing. Sit on your ass and get drowned. Then cry for help. Leave your school buses to be flooded and ruined.

Cry some more.

Lambaste the president of the country, who has absolutely no control over disaster planning in New Orleans. Lash out. Really make asses out of yourselves.

New Orleans will be rebuilt, and will be destroyed again.

A natural disaster is a situation where all Americans come together to help out those who are less fortunate victims.

Blame can be found everywhere... from Bush and Company in the White House down to the local mayor and NOPD.

If any or all of these culpabilities came together by August 28, then the death toll today would be in the hundreds, not thousands or tens of thousands.

"When you see a victim
Don't victimize"

EVERY PROGRESSIVE POLITICAL GROUP and EVERY TRUE PATRIOT SHOULD BE PUTTING A HUGE PART OF THEIR EFFORTS TOWARD A CALL FOR RESIGNATION OF ALL BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS.

AND IF THEY DON'T RESIGN, THEY SHOULD BE IMPEACHED, TRIED, and SENTENCED FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST THIS AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

please see the "Declaration of New Orleans" below:

Declaration of New Orleans
by Charles Montesquieu Saturday, Sep. 03, 2005 at 3:24 AM
charliemontesquieu@yahoo.com

A Declaration of The People of the United States of America Concerning the Present Crisis in the City of New Orleans.

In the name of the People of the United States of America, we declare:

That for the last four and a half years the President and his administration have served the interests of a few wealthy citizens and not the interests of the American People.

That he has acted with contempt for the People and for the Constitution and the laws of the United States.

That an edict of the Supreme Court made him President in 2000 and fraud made him President again in 2004.

That the President has pursued an unprecedented expansion of Executive powers that are a grave threat to the rights and liberties of the American People.

That he has made war on sovereign nations that are no threat to the American People.

That his "War on Terror" has cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives without bringing those responsible for the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 to justice.

That the failure of his leadership in the present crisis in the City of New Orleans has resulted in the deaths of thousands more.

That he is derelict in every duty of his office.

Therefore, we resolve:

That President George W. Bush and his administration are illegitimate.

That he should resign from office and new elections should be held immediately.

That if he does not resign, the Congress of the United States should act to remove him from office.

That if the Congress should fail to act, the People will exercise their right to abolish this state and will establish a new government that will better secure their rights and liberties.

COPY AND DISTRIBUTE

Kimberly Hughes SOCIAL ACTION BROOKLYN HEIGHTS NEW YORK CITY

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone needs to be canned, it seems it would be the idiot Mayor of New Orleans, who left people to die while all the school buses sat behind a locked gate, as the city was slowly inundated with water, eventually reaching the buses.

To listen to this idiot curse the president makes me laugh. Is Bush supposed to fly to New Orleans and personally organize the evacuation effort??????

If so, what is the point of having a mayor?

Anyone?

Enjoyed listening to the Crawford broadcasts. The mp3s are great, but are there going to be more?

I'd particularly like to have one of the "Kitchen Goddess" singing. That was quite moving.

Brad: The more voices, the better (duh!).

Bush said on TV today, "We need to understand the relationship between the Federal, State, and Local government."

There you have it! He finally admitted it! He doesn't understand the relationship between the Federal, State, and Local governmnet. He's taking a "crash course" in it now, learning "on the fly" about government, 5 years into his presidency!

Brad, glad to have you on your way back, as to your question - keep the guest bloggers.
Their visions have been interesting and enlightening.
Keep up the good work you all.

Compounding the issue, polluting the Mississippi and the rest of the Gulf Coast

Anyone with a KOS account, go over to this diary

http://www.dailykos.com/...nly/2005/9/6/202428/9994

and recommend it.

Then slam media and Congress hard about complicating the issue and destroying the environment.

They are dumping all the contaminated water - where else? - into the Mississipi.

Compounding the problem of the pollution at least a hundredfold.

I have I believe, the first confirmed sighting of VP Dick Cheney since Katrina hit, ......what's the prize?

Watching the news. Soon they are going to address the reason the hundreds of school buses were left locked up by the Democratic mayor of New Orleans.

Perhaps they will ask him about the backup generators for the Superdome. Or the backup sewage removal plan for the superdome.

Perhaps the Louisiana governor (a democrat) will be asked how crying & having a meltdown can be considered leadership.

We have many left wing socialists on this blog who seem to want to blame the GOP government in the whitehouse for the Katrina disaster.

What about the absolute INACTION of those democrats who SHOULD have done something? The mayor and the governor in particular.

Anyone?

On the Lars Larson Show Brad said that Governor Blanco declared a state of emergency on 8/28 and Larson used that fact to explain the government need 48 to 72 hours to respond. Actually GOVERNOR BLANCO DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY on August 26th.

Fema’s Michael D. Brown acknowledged the state of emergency on August 27th.

Sorry my links did not work.

Governor Blanco declared a state of emergency on 8/28 . http://www.gov.state.la....elease_detail.asp?id=973

Fema’s Michael D. Brown acknowledged the state of emergency on August 27th. http://www.fema.gov/news...ewsrelease.fema?id=18447

Sorry my links did not work.

Governor Blanco declared a state of emergency on 8/28 . http://www.gov.state.la....elease_detail.asp?id=973

Fema’s Michael D. Brown acknowledged the state of emergency on August 27th. http://www.fema.gov/news...ewsrelease.fema?id=18447

Hi, Bushw@cker #25 --- Where's Cheney? He's very busy blogging under the pen-name "Ken".

Dear Ken:

What was Bush doing on Monday while New Orleans was getting slammed?

Playing golf and accepting a guitar as a gift in California.

I guess he didn't know what was going on "in that part of the world" eh?

Anyone?

It seems FEMA is completely unprepared to assist people in a disaster. The only response FEMA was able to muster was a military strike against perceived attackers. So, they treated the NO victims like Al-Quida terrorists. They imprisoned the victims, deprived them of water, food, medicines and evacuation out of the disaster area. They cut off communications, shot at people, and blocked aid from entering the disaster area to assist the terrorists (victims). They refused all outside assistance from other cities, states, countries. After the presidential photo-op, and following the angry reports from the media, Bush and FEMA decided they needed to change tactics. Bush and his "appointees" are a bunch of morons --- how much more of this internal attack on America can Americans endure????

Hi guys ,trolls a plenty still .

Ken tell me again what "FEMA" and "Homeland Security" does ?

I'll tell you what "FEMA" and "Homeland Security" does! Trouble is that it's against the law!!!

MM,

First, you need to read your constitution. Then tell me what the democratic mayor and the democratic governor were doing for the evacuation of New Orleans.

THEN ask me questions about FEMA.

The mayor left the school buses locked up and unused. He had no plan whatsoever, even though he is the MAYOR.

Bush is not the mayor's boss. The governor of the state did no better.

This was a state issue. Read your constitution. Have you ever read it?

I will give you $1000 if you can show me anything in the constitution that indicates Bush has any responsibility for evacuating a city in the face of any natural disaster. Plus I will donate $1000 to bradblog.

Even if every person left a major city when a hurricane was headed that way, which has never happened, it would not stop levees breaking as a result of neglect and intentional disregard.

Levees fail because of neglect ... not because of how many dudes or dudettes are in town or out of town.

Leaving or not leaving town had nothing with the levees breaking. The levees breaking, as one troll recently said, is the ONLY issue related to the flooding. That troll just did not know that bu$hit was the one WORKING HARD not to fix, repair, and improve those levees that broke.

That could have happened with any heavy rain sooner or later. It happened in the past without hurricanes.

The money bu$hit was advocating for the levees, which the conservative republican senator who was head of the Corp of Engineers, said was very inadequate and was less than 10% of what was required to avoid danger (link here).

Bu$hit finally gave in to less than 20% of the amount necessary to make the place secure. Meanwhile he sent $5,000,000,000 CASH to the warlocks in Iraq ("that part of the world") which was lost.

He had people to kill "in that part of the world" and could not spend $20 million on the folks where the levees are ("in that part of the world").

Parts are parts ... in that part of the world.

DONATE MILES TO FLY IN ANTI-WAR UK MP for CITIZENS' TRIBUNAL ON IRAQ
Michael Meacher, the environmental minister who resigned from the Blair administration to protest the invasion of Iraq, would like to participate in the tribunal. Meacher would be a fantastic complement to the "Voices of Diplomacy" panel, but regrettably, the SP4 Support Team does not have the funds to fly him here. PLEASE donate your credit card air miles to this incredibly important event. Contact T. Abdelazim at 607-239-1219 immediately if you can help

It looks like many people posting here aren't actually "in" the hurricane, meaning: You're not as stressed out as those who just lost their home.

Congratulations! You still have your computer and have some time to think.

Now that you've had a chance over the last week or so to digest what's happened, I'd like to see more discussion on "what do we do next time"?

Here are my thoughts.

What does "F" mean in FEMA

FEMA's preparation, performance and questionable largesse during the four 2004 Florida hurricanes stands in stark contrast with its abysmal failure in New Orleans in the wake of Katrina. While severe, the four Florida hurricanes (Charley, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne) caused under 100 deaths and $22 billion in damage, a fraction of Katrina's destructive force. Yet FEMA's proactive role and President Bush's timely and personal involvement in Florida bear no relation to 2005:

Yep, it's all the Mayor's fault. Ignore all the audio of him BEGGING for emergency authority to order and direct comprehensive relief efforts be redirected to him from the Federal and gubernatorial purview in which it resides. Pay no attention to that. And those so-called "victims," all those dopes deserved to be wiped out because they had the temerity to live in a disaster-prone area, just like the morons in Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, most coastal communities, and of course all the inland areas prone to decimation from fires, earthquakes, twisters, drought, and all that other fun stuff that petulant toddler called "God" sics on us poor losers to remind us why we need to worship Him--because otherwise he'll kill us.

Next election I'm voting Republican so that God will not smite America any further. Come to think of it, I don't really have much choice in the matter, do I?

Live Free... Die Bold.

May I live to DIE BOLD.

Katrina Hearings DeLayed!

Well, the next disaster is on the way (not the hurricanes brewing in the south Atlantic which may still visit us later).

The danger posed by pumping the toxic water (the Corp of Engineers, under Rumsfeld's leadership, has produced by letting the levees degenerate and break) back into the rivers, lakes, and the gulf, could cause another catastrophe (link here).

"Toxicologists and public health experts warned yesterday that pumping billions of gallons of contaminated water from the streets of New Orleans back into the Gulf of Mexico - the only viable option if the city is ever to return to even a semblance of its former self -would have a crippling effect on marine and animal life, compromise the wetlands that form the first line of resistance to future hurricanes, and carry deleterious consequences for human health throughout the region."

Well the truth has now come out. The repubs are spinning that neighboring states Alabama and Mississippi faired better with their response because they had republican governors. Bottom line - help was held back from La. and given to neighboring states because they had repub Governors. Why? To make the repubs look better in the public eye? Who knows - Is this a sick bunch or what?

Link to Delay's comments
http://www.cnn.com/2005/...rina.congress/index.html

What's the alternative, Dredd? I'm no engineer, but it sounds as if the choice is between abandoning New Orleans as a city for good and permanently polluting the Gulf of Mexico.

Jim,

You say the mayor should be commended because he begged for help? That's how you defend his inaction?

Perhaps he could have had a plan BEFORE the big one hit...such as....

1) designated drivers for the 255 schoolbuses that sat idle for the whole time the waters were rising, until they were finally worthless.
2) generators in the superdome, where he sent thousands of people to sit in the dark.
3) gasoline for the generators to provide lighting for a couple of days at least.
4) some clean water for people to drink.....

Yep, Jim, I guess your mayor begging for help AFTER THE FACT demonstrates his leadership MUCH BETTER.

This is the typical liberal, socialist mind. Do nothing, then beg for handouts. Curse the president for not micromanaging every city's bailout plan.

Why have a mayor? And what about the Governor? Where was her plan?

Answer: They had no plans.

your stay in texas was irrelevant. cindy sheehan is irrelevant. the mayor and governor of new orleans are incompetent. aaron broussard gave an embarrassing performance. if he was so worried about that lady being rescued, he could have saved her himself. i would have saved my mother or helped my friend save his. you goobers are nothing but finger pointers and gossipers.

Can't quite figure out why you all who feel WE are so stupid and goobers (?) waste your valuable time on this blog. This blog is for those with facts and educated discussion.

Oh, whats that you say ? EVEN FOX NEWS IS ANNOUNCING FEMA WAITED 5 HOURS TO ASK FOR HELP AND THEN TOLD THE 1000 EMPLOYEES TO WAIT TWO DAYS BEFORE COMING IN.

Ken back up your mouth with facts not just your ignorant, racist ramblings. Those welfare blacks here in Houston already are working, ARE YOU?
You have no idea who is on what or why.

Hi RLM - I shudder to contemplate the stark choice we face. If we do have to seal it up and abandon it, it HAS to be named The George Walker Bush Toxic Memorial. :pissed as hell:

Hmmm, let see
255 busses X 44 (max capacity), wait, make that 35, you'll want them to bring all the necessities that they can.

9 hours to travel 90 miles (pre-huricane evacuees reported, and then found themselves in the huricane, in their cars), and an imaginary location to put them, lets see, that would be 8925 to 11220 people.
Wait, the diameter of the worst part of the hurricane was 210 miles, so the best bet is to get them at least 200 miles inland. Thats 15 to 20 hours travel time. Then you send the busses back which ought to be interesting considering the highways are turned into one way streets OUT of NO. Guess you've run out of time.

Now,what about those other 50-70 thousand people...

Gas and backup generators for the Superdome. Wonder how big those generators would be? Don't forget redundency, you'll need at least 2! Lives are on the line after all! I've seen generators bigger than my house. Wonder how much gas that would take? You'd have to keep it in the Superdome at ALL times to maintain preparedness for all forms of disaster, not just hurricanes. Let see, tanker trucks of gas stored where tens of thousands congregate...
I bet the fumes from one of those things leaking would kill off a good portion of the people in the Superdome. I wouldn't worry though, you could always evacuate them. Besides, they don't really leak, except in fantastic circumstances. You know, like a hurricane.

Clean water! Who would've thought! Thank god the water system is, um, flooded with a toxic sludge. No problem, we'll just store 64oz bottles of water. That's 1 64oz bottle of water per day X 14 days (minimum) X 100,000 people (you can't tell how many people there are going to be ahead of time!)
thats 1.4 million bottles of water. Now, where to store it? Anywhere nearby could be flooded or destroyed, so lets move it 200 miles inland.

You're best bet is your first line of defense, the levees. Army core of engineers handles the levees, just as they do the levees throughout the Mississippi basin (hundred, if not thousands of them). They can get the funding to protect those levees, can't they?

The degree to which people are ignorant of the scale of this disaster is mindboggling.

Has the remarkable coincidence of the Supreme Court's ruling on eminent domain and the "clearing out" of NO's poor been noticed by everyone? Think that could have something to do with Halliburton's contract to rebuild the city?

How about how pitiful it is, to see our president asking for private donations for the Katrina disaster! This is exactly GOP philosophy. Cut and cut government services to people (but not corporate welfare), and then ask private citizens (the rich ones who got huge tax cuts, maybe?) for donations.

This GOP philosophy implies that American citizens do not have a RIGHT to help and aid from the government. If private citizens don't donate, TOUGH SHIT! YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN!

That's why it makes me sick to see our president on TV begging for private donations for disaster. Apparently, our government cannot provide the even the minimum, so our GOP president has to beg for private donations. All the 1% richest who got hundreds of billions of dollars in tax cuts can donate (if they choose to...)!!!

Who knew the levee's would fail? There is only one person to blame. BUSH! Then all shit rolls downhill.

CITIZEN 663 WELL SAID !!!

Big Dan (#52),

You know, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have corporate welfare and small government (letting the corporations take over the disaster response), IF they would hire virtually 100% of the population so that the unemployment rate would go to zero... AND the jobs that were created were high wage, high benefits "livable" wage jobs.

If they agreed to do that, I would join the pro-business conservative movement. Until then, I will remain a progressive.

Big Dan (#52),

You know, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have corporate welfare and small government (letting the corporations take over the disaster response), IF they would hire virtually 100% of the population so that the unemployment rate would go to zero... AND the jobs that were created were high wage, high benefits "livable" wage jobs.

If they agreed to do that, I would join the pro-business conservative movement. Until then, I will remain a progressive.

Sorry for the double post... pushed the wrong thingamajiggie.

I think the next big story we should all keep a light shining on, is making sure these mostly poor, black folks get their property back, when this is all over.

Let's keep an eye on Halliburton, and rich land barons, confiscating property from these people.

Don't forget this!!!

I already don't like the fact that Halliburton is in there!!!

I'm serious! Watch out for the land-grab, to confiscate property from the New Orleans residents!!!

New Orleans residents are already being forced to evacuate, to Texas, etc... They may never come back!!! And the story will slowly disappear from the media!!!

What if Halliburton, FEMA, or whoever, just start bulldozing things down, and building things???

I hope CNN keeps an eye on them, while they're down there.

One need not be a socialist sympathizer to condemn the Bush administration for its response to Hurricane Katrina.

One need not assume the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana behaved in exemplary fashion in order to find fault with Bush.

One need not view the events of the last week through a political prism in order to know the Bush administration failed miserably. Incompetence is non-partisan.

Hiring a horse-show judge and political crony to run FEMA, then having him say, "We didn't know people were in the Convention Center" even though TV had been broadcasting that very fact for two days represents INCOMPETENCE. That's not a socialist speaking, that's a political Independent with libertarian leanings, stating a simple fact.

Would it help the trolls' sensitivities to say that the mayor, governor, and Bush all get grades of "F"? When the federal government has resources no state or city can muster, who should shoulder the most blame? The state? The city? Don't think so.

Just heard on CNN - Nancy Pelosi had a conversation with Bush yesterday and when she asked if he was satisfied with all that has gone wrong, his comment was, "what has gone wrong?" She asked if Brown should lose his job and again Bush asked why?
She was appalled and said he was in denial.
Reality not allowed in Bush & Co.

So how does one head an investigation if that person doesn't think there is a problem.

Also, Scott McClellan said the buck stops here and was asked did he mean the president and he said yes. Gonna be tough to get out of that comment.

They are all so panicked they are tripping over the lies. How about just saying we made mistakes and will correct them.

Robert,

At last you admit the governor and the mayor both get an F for their reaction to the disaster. Congrats.

Big Dan #52 Good point.

The only time they don't ask for donations is when they need war money or need money to pay their own and their cronies salaries.

Then they take it from the poor and middle classes by force. And then divide it up amonst the aristocracy of incompetents.

RLM #45 Good question. These incompetents have no vision, and as their bible thumpin preachers tell them on Sunday "where there is no vision the people perish" (proverbs somewhere).

The vision needed was about sixth grade: uh, spend 20m now to bring the levees up to a category 5 posture or spend 100-150 billion later to do it anyway, plus rebuild, plus suffer the greatest disaster in our history.

Wow, hard choice.

Now we are so between a rock and a hard place (bu$hit's heart and mind) that anything done is going to cause disaster.

That is as dark as it gets. I really do not know what to do now.

But since I am as smart as a 6th grader I would have advocated for the fixing of the levees. I am on record having done that for years.

And the conservative republican leader of the Corps of Engineers was too ... until bu$hit fired him for advocating such "unnecessary" repairs and upgrades.

I now am left to suffer with the rest of you because the neoCon fascists are in power.

CITIZEN663 - Please repeat your message over and over...that is the only way the coolaide drinkers understand anything, repetition.

I notice the Pr people for Bush, are wearing out the slogan, "we must find out what was done right and fix what was done wrong. "

If only, that would happen, Bush would have a shred of credibility left.

However, when confronted by Nancy Pelosi, Bush did not see anything wrong nor that Brown was an incompetent boob. So how do you talk to an oblivious person?

No mountains in NW Texas. Only west Texas about 150 miles east of El Paso. If you are going NW have to go to NM for mountains but your trip to NM will be well worth it. See Carlsbad while you are at it. It's cool --- about 55 degrees.

Citizen663

Well said. The help must come from outside, pre-organized and quickly. Response time is crucial.

Indifference is deadly.

The point is, Ken, you don't excuse Bush's failures by pointing out someone else's. Don't know if you're married with children, but if so, suppose your kid came home with three "Fs" and two "Ds" on his report card, and said, "But Tommy got four Fs!" Would that make you feel better? Or would you say, "Never mind about Tommy...what's wrong with you?"

By Bush's own words, he failed. In trying to justify a (non-existent) link between 9/11 and Iraq, he has repeatedly insisted, "My main job is to protect the American people." By that standard, he failed. Nothing anyone says about the mayor or governor can change that. Nothing anyone says about socialists, and no left-wing vs. right-wing political rhetoric, can change that.

Once again...incompetence is non-partisan.

I wish someone would tell me WHEN a President, who is paid with tax dollars IS accountable.

When he starts an illegal war on lies.

When he creates a deficit and borrows a billion a week to support his tax cuts and war.

When we find out he planned a war BEFORE he stole two elections.

When babies died because HE paid a favor back and PUT incompentents in a most important job.

So when is a person like this accountable to those who pay his salary?

Robert,
If you think it was bush's job to save the people in New Orleans, you are an idiot.

Read the constitution.

Your analogy is ridiculous. Now I understand why your books don't sell.

TexasLady,

Once again, good question! You seem to really hit the nail on the head with your questions.

I've always felt bad for you because you live in the middle of the Lion's Den... a progressive family in Texas - the heart of Bush country. As much as I loved visiting Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth, if I had to live there, I'd be bald from pulling all my hair out.

Not sure how you and your husband can keep your collective sanity amongst all of the pro Bush sentiment there!

Mrbluesky - have to share this with you...there is hope here in this little town after all.

Two friends, a math teacher and her husband, a Principal staunch Bush supporters...up until New Orleans disaster. Mike was so angry he went to the Astrodome, found a family of 7 and took them to a family cottage a few miles away. Mike said he wished he had NEVER voted for Bush and NEVER would again.

Mike took the family to a nearby town, got the kids into school, one goes to college. Well at the grocery store, 4 people came up and pressed money into the family's hands and gave out phone numbers if the family should need any help in the new surroundings. Several neighbors also came by and offered any help the family might need.

If my husband had not told me this I would not have believed it.

So one at a time, maybe

Needless to say, people are beginning to think and remember what leaders are supposed to do.

I keep saying these "shooting" stories don't make sense. And that they're possible "cover" stories for "other" reasons. Well, read this:

FEMA: "Don't film anything, or you might get shot (by us?)"

FEMA wants CNN off the streets because of "miscreants shooting" at rescue workers.

Let's see...starving, dying "miscreants" who survived a hurricane over a week ago, are shooting rescue workers!!! Right...............

I'm saying that I'll believe it, when they actually catch one of these guys, and CNN interviews them, and they say, "Yes, I'm a New Orleans resident, and I'm shooting at rescue workers." Until I see that, I wouldn't put anything past our government. They're shooting reporters in Iraq, too!!! You know...

Sorry, but I never would imagine such things, until I saw the Bush Administration.

I hope someone from CNN catches one of these government f***ers doing something on film they're not supposed to be doing!!!

The Bush Administration definitely does not want CNN in New Orleans, I can tell you that! They can't spin the film footage. These are the same guys who are telling the Washington Post that the governor of Louisianna didn't declare it a disaster area! (Rove & Bartlett) They're working night and day, not to save people, but to "spin" the news and "spin" Bush's "f***-up"...

Do you think the Bush Administration isn't figuring ways to get reporters out of New Orleans???

Hey Dan (#76),

In regards to your comment:

Quote

Do you think the Bush Administration isn't figuring ways to get reporters out of New Orleans???

End Quote

I am wondering if they aren't concocting some biochemical or radiological health hazard that "just happened to be found" in order to evacuate all of the journalists.

It seems that the Bush Admin is diametrically opposed to the truth and its dissemination!

Constant, #38
Very interesting ideas on hurricane timelines!
Please keep the ideas and suggestions coming!

Jerry, #78

Thanks! Here's another for you.

Cindy Who?

Constant you forgot the predator drone orbiting with the cell phone repeaters (all systems) to broadcast public service info to endangered population.

The impeachement of the media has begun.

In the only criticism of the administration in a long time, the MSM are still failing.

It is good that there are detailed, point by point discussions of how the media is failing (link here).

Let me ask you folks just how many helicopters is in the US department called FEMA, How many boats do they have? How many police? How many troops? How many trucks? How many Busses? The answer is none!!!!!!!!!!!! They are there to coordinate the local, State and federal authorities and assist them in the management of their assets. When the local leadership failed to force the citizens to obey the evacuation order and then panicked and went into an ebonic tirade of swearwords. Most people are warned to keep 3-4 days worth of food and water for the emergencies and to evacuate all low-lying areas. The local government is responsible for that not the federal government. How many bus drivers does the federal government employ? No, the city has the busses; they know where the people in the low areas are not the federal government. They failed their people not the President. It was a miracle FEMA was able to respond as quickly as they did. The military had to fly the plains and Helicopters away to protect them from the storm and you cannot fly those hundreds of miles back in 24 hours. When they get there they would have been useless with out fuel and support that has to travel by land or sea. Just keep up the blame game you are playing right into the presidents hand in “Well there they go again” When will you folks ever learn?

Nope. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's a responsibility game, not a blame game. "We folks" get that. You obviously don't.

The local response was poor. But the federal government's response was worse. They have the resources New Orleans and Louisiana don't have. They can borrow money by selling T-bills to China (in fact, that's how the economy has stayed afloat). States and cities can't sell Treasury securities.

The Army Corps of Engineers is a federal bureau, not a local one. No school bus could have prevented a dike from giving way, but adequate planning at the federal level could have.

But Bush cut the budget. He has repeatedly said, "My main job is to protect Americans." He doesn't mean people in New Orleans, obviously. They got the same short shrift that soldiers in Iraq have been given.

Nope. "We folks" have learned all we need to know about Bush and his cronies. You've sung the same tune too long, trolls. We all know better, now.

HCOCDR #83
Please see #50

Additionally, see HERE to find how the federal government IS responsible. Their own guidlines indicate that the Federal government should bypass state and local authorities if it inhibits rescue plans. They also indicate that the Federal Government should not wait for all information to come in before sending in rescue teams.

You would have to live in a hole to not have seen that the state and local governments were overwhelmed, and to some extent, still are.

Louisiana had agreements with Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida to share resources in the event of a catastrophic disaster. Noone anticipated one hitting all of the states.

It is only logical that the only organization capable of handling something of this magnitude in a very short amount of time would be the military. With built in command and control and a ready made communications infrastructure.

Sadly, they were not sent in in nearly the force needed, or in an acceptable time frame.

One last thing HCOCDR,
I flew from Chicago to the West coast in something like 4 hours. So yes, you CAN fly hundreds of miles in under 24 hours.

Well well well! Just like I said in comment #59 before it even happened! This Wall Street Journal (a GOP propoganda paper, no less) says that the elite whites in New Orleans don't want the blacks back. See my comment above predicting this...

White Elites of New Orleans

Ken, I hope you don't live in a big city, or hurricane alley, or there's a disaster in your area. Hope you feel safe with these inept hoodlums protecting you!

They really "warded off" the 9/11 attacks, too, didn't they? Was Bush president during 9/11? In your mind, he wasn't.

The "Master of Disaster", George Bush.

Elite whites won't be able to run New Orleans without blacks any more that Scarlett O'Hara could have run Tara without slaves.

When people come in from out of town to eat at French Quarter restaurants, somebody has to wait on them and clean the dishes. When a convention comes to town, somebody has to set up the tables. Elite whites won't drive streetcars or cabs from the airport. They won't drag the nets to bring in the seafood or cook the fiddly-gumbo soup.

Good luck, elite whites. As Scarlett once said,
"Tomorrow is another day."

the president sought the job in order to lead, and it seems to me that criticism comes with the territory. so people who're upset that there are those who are dissatisfied need to stop being so uptight about the negative critiques. the extent of disapproval has everything to do with ways in which the president falls short of expectation. along with the perks - attention, place in the historical record, near absolute power - comes the burdens - accountability when mistakes are made.

is this the right time to be having the discussion?
who cares. beyond a certain point, the responses of people to a traumatic event can't be managed and controlled. if some of us are upset, well that's just the way it is and the person who sought leadership has to
deal with it. if they don't by deflecting blame, they're not very good leaders.

i've been reading this blog for close to a year and have never made a comment. it seems that no matter how sensible a remark may be, a whack of people continue to think whatever it is their attached to. i don't expect anyone who is upset with those considered anti-bush will give a shit what i think, no matter how i put it. however, as others have pointed out, there is general incompetence at the top. i just wish there would be more emphasis placed on making the administration accountable for its faliures, and less on continually defending turf.

The UH-60 Blackhawk Helicopters have a range 315 nm using internal fuel they can attach external fuel cells but that would get them only another 100 miles. Then they would not be able to carry as many people to safety. When they got to NO, they could not have flown but just for a few minuets before crashing into the ground. They could not have refueled at your local gas station or as the guy at the garage to look under the hood. It takes the military time to get the support elements, fuel trucks, flight crews that keep the birds fling into position to help the people. Look at the time it took for the buildup of Desert Storm. When they did arrive, what choice did they have to make. Take food and evacuate the people on dry ground at the doam or pluck the drowning from the water? Do you think they made the choice because of race? This is a push button society that expects things to happen when they snap their fingers but some things take time. Why was the Mayor and governor not at the Doan to get things under control? They picked that place not the President. He told them to get everyone out on the 27th. They chose not too. Even a small reduction would have eased the drain on the recourses there.

#91 HCOCDR It is curious that you violently disagree with all on this blog, yet continue day after day when you can go to a blog that agrees with you. And could it be that "Ken, Susan, Ricky, Jimmo, and you are all the same person?

So I am thinking follow the money...which would be you are being paid by Karl Rove who pays pretend protestors at the Florida recount and people to hold signs at ProBush rallys.

How does it feel to sell your morals?

But your comments are backfiring because people on this blog come back with facts and figures and blow you out of the water.

Facts like

"I flew from Chicago to the West coast in something like 4 hours. So yes, you CAN fly hundreds of miles in under 24 hours."

Or the fact that Brad or Conyers or any dEM has ever found anything that our President has done right. If the President is for it they are against it. It does not make good logic for him to be wrong on everything he does. I am a Soldier fighting in Iraq the things we see on the news is not what is going on on the ground here so don't tell me to go away and blog somewhere else. Congressman John Conyers bands anyone disagreeing with his opinions on his blog. I am giving anyone with the misfortune to stumble onto this sight another opinion and see that everyone does not walk lock step with the Bush Bashers.

#93 Ok, inform me, name one thing Bush has done for the good of America. And remember I have lived in Texas for 30 years and saw what he did and is doing to this state. And it isn't good.
Now he is doing it to all of America.

Are you aware Infant Mortality is at 43% higher than 1958? Or that Poverty is higher than ever before? Or that people have to choose between buying gas or food?

We have family in Iraq and they are so busy trying to reinforce their half armoured vehicles they HAVEN'T time to write garbage. And like the soldier who said on national tv. "Welcome to goddam Frigging Iraq". They just want to come home.

Have you been to a VA hospital, I have, ask the men who will NEVER have children again if it is worth it, ask the girl with NO arms if it was worth it.
I did and they would like two minutes with Bush and it would not be to shake his hand.

Again, name ONE THING BUSH HAS DONE FOR THE GOOD OF AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Dear HCOCDR (Post #93),

(I assume that is another military acronym).

Thanks for your posting. I have been waiting for someone to bring up the subject of constantly finding fault with Bush. Thanks!

In December 2000, after a long, hard, venomous campaign, Bush stood in front of the Texas State House of Representatives and asked everyone (Republican voters, Democratic voters, Independents, etc.) in the nation to give him a chance. So be it, I decided. I will do so, above the objections of my family, who distrusted Bush. After all, he promised to be a “Uniter, not a Divider.”

Two days later, he jetted across the country selling his (what was then) 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut (predominantly for the wealthiest sliver of Americans.) I talked to a lady in Houston at that time. She defended the tax cuts asking me, “Who pays the taxes in the country?” To which I responded, “I do! The struggling middle class. My back is breaking from the tax burden. Leona Helmsley once said, ‘Rich people don’t pay taxes!!’”

Anyway, just two days after the photo op in Austin, he betrayed us progressives! TWO DAYS!!! He should have altered the formula for the tax breaks to target them primarily to the middle class.

Despite the vitriol of the campaign, I was willing to give him a fair shake. And he betrayed me in two days, well before he even took office.

So you ask why I cannot find anything right with him? How can I possibly do so? I gave him a chance… and he blew it completely.

And ever since then, at least 90% of policy and decision making that is coming from the White House has been hostile to the middle, working poor and poverty classes.

When he changes this, and reverses the direction of the Misery Index for the first time since he took office, I will agree to give him another chance.

What are the odds of him doing that though?

I support you troops 100%. You are the good guys and you are doing a GREAT job out there in the field. Indeed, you are the heroes of Iraq! And you will be rewarded when all of you come home to the ticker tape parades you so richly deserve. And I and people like me (like TexasLady for instance), will be at those parades cheering you on.

It is your Commander-in-Chief that I have a problem with.

TexasLady (#94),

What are you talking about??

Bu$h loves Americans…. The ones who make at least $2 million or more a year, anyway!

Get a clue HCOCDR!
UH-60s aren't the only way to move material.

Think C140s, in air refueling. Noone has to land, you just need to get food and water down there!
No C140s available? That was sort of the point with "I flew from Chicago to the West coast in something like 4 hours. So yes, you CAN fly hundreds of miles in under 24 hours." We can fly C-140s to EU but no Louisiana?
A handy use for parachutes, I might add. We can parachute tanks but not food and water?

What about the 8000 troops at fort Polk in Louisiana??!! Guess they never got deployed.

Our military at our bases with our equipment can't mobilize in 4 days time to protect our own people on our own soil?!

If you represent our present republican leadership, it's no wonder this whole thing is as fucked up as it is!

94 Texaslady

I would like an answer to that also. I have searched, can find nothing. What a legacy this president leaves behind, when we are finally rid of him! An entire history book couldn't list his crimes.

that was harsh, and I apologize HCOCDR, I really do.
but if we can't mobilize our own military on our own soil, using the existing civilian infrastructure if necessary in under 4 days, than we have much larger problems than a failure of leadership

First I have a difficult time believing HCOCDR is stationed in Iraq. My family say it is just about staying alive 24/7. And they do want to come home.
As Captain Daniel Greene, a battlefield surgeon said, " the accomplishments are greatly exaggerated and the failures downplayed.
We will be there a long, long time."

If HCOCDR is even associated with any branch of service, he is very, very young and needs to grow up. But I will wait for both answers, 1) why do you bother with us when you so violently disagree, his answer, "he was informing us." have to do better than that.
2) name one thing Bush has done for the good of the American people. Still waiting.

Wouldn't it be refreshing to just have a troll say, "I am being paid to take up space on this blog, because people here are too intelligent and might get some coolaide drinkers to stop drinking.

I will give Bush, Cheney, Rove one thing, they do not give a flying flip and really don't care if you and I don't like it. Just keep paying those taxes tho.

hcocdr

Please explain the following:

Sipping highballs, New Orleans white elite tell
Wall Street Journal they don't want poor back

Exxon enjoys hurricane chaos: $10b quarter

Former FEMA chief may profit from storm
Ex-chief of relief agency working for Halliburton, aims to negotiate contract.

UN shocks: Parts of U.S. 'third world'

Grand jury indicts GOP leader's fund

9/11 panel heads see Katrina parallels

Colo. liquor stores got 9/11 loans

Canada beats U.S. Army to Katrina aid

25,000 body bags sent to flood zone

Oops,

Forgot to link that to Raw Story

Can you believe this 11 Republicans just voted against the 51 billion aid proposed by Bush.
Check out Daily Kos

Now why is it, I smell a rat...see Bush can say I tried, then has his yes men vote against it and take the rap. And if they are dumb enough to have this black mark, so be it.

Texas Lady,

When I read your post, I immediately went to the US House webpage... I had to see if my neocon Republican Congressman (Dave Reichert) voted with those 11. I would be unquenchably p---ed if he did.

Fortunately for me, all 9 Washington State congressmen/women voted to pass the relief bill.

---- W H E W ----

Nope it was reported only Republicans voted against it. Bet they all owed something to Rove, want to wager?

MrBluesky go check out Blog on Nancy Pelosi, still trying to use the old dog, "can't blame Bush for the storm." Hello no one is...just the lame action after.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said there is no need for confusion about who is running things.

"This is a massive catastrophe and it requires a massive response with all hands on deck," he said. "There are clear lines of authority and responsibility. ... Ultimately the president is in charge."

WHY DOES ANYONE KEEP SAYING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T IN CHARGE, WHEN SCOTT MCLELLAN HIMSELF IS SAYING THEY ARE???

HCOCDR: Since you're stationed in Iraq, look for WMD's & Osama Bin Laden while you're there...he's wanted dead or alive by Bush: BIG REWARD, I HEAR!!!

H ow
C an
O ur
C ountry
D efend
R epublicans.

Hi, RLM #89 --- Doesn't Bushco. have plans to replace the blacks with "illegal" hispanics from Mexico/S. America, who CAN'T VOTE, and work for less than minimum wages and no benefits?????

HCOCDR - if you are in Iraq, your Government has released DU everywhere and your body is being damaged/destroyed. Too bad for you. And if you are ill, Bushco. won't take care of you once/if you make it back to the USA. One day, you will be sorry you supported the Bushco. evil doers --- even if you never admit it out loud to anyone.

Big Dan asked: "WHY DOES ANYONE KEEP SAYING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T IN CHARGE, WHEN SCOTT MCLELLAN HIMSELF IS SAYING THEY ARE???"

The "President" wants to be seen as "in charge" of everything, but he doesn't want to be seen as "responsible" for anything.

How's that for leadership?

Did somebody say "Impeach"??

McCLELLAN:
That's not a --- I wouldn't necessarily view that as directed at anyone in particular, just that this is such a massive catastrophe that covers such a large area and that has affected a large number of people. Particularly in a city like New Orleans, those people are doing everything they can to keep going and make it through this very difficult and trying time. This is an extraordinarily difficult, trying time for the people who were affected, and for the people who continue to suffer. And it's going to take time to get help to some of them --- that's why the federal government has prioritized resources, and prioritizing how to get those resources to people on the ground. The first one is saving lives, and right there with it is sustaining life.

I'm so tired of this obvious hipocrisy. To blame the failures on local officials, and then say that the feds are working on it, but that it was a MASSIVE catastophe. Apparently trying to justify their substandard response, is, frankly, sickening.

While there is no excuse on any level, I certainly feel less compassion and more disgust for the organization with access to countless more resources while self righteously throwing blame at those below them with fewer resources who carry the heavier burden of watching their neighbors suffer.

This failure will live personally with the members of the republican majority for decades, and it should!

Well, I think --- and certainly all of us have seen it --- the President has seen the images on our TV screens

If this were true, he would have gone back to washington on the Monday of Katrina, or at least tuesday morning when images of the gulf coast shoreline came through. He would have started trying to lead before Wednesday in any event. Anyways, he seems to think that he is at all times more informed than the general media.

As if WMDs in Iraq hasn't proven what a trojan horse that concept is.

Why the hell are my taxes so high for THIS

The private mercenaries that I hire to guard this country are the US MILITARY!!!!!

I trust the US Military. I would HELP the US Military. I PAY for the US Military.

How stretched is our military that we have to hire MERCENARIES to patrol our own land!!!!!

Why the hell am I paying for that?

You really got me on that one. I could see your blog now " Army crushes poor people by dropping supplies on them." I did not see a good DZ (drop zone) in the City.

"""What about the 8000 troops at fort Polk in Louisiana??!! Guess they never got deployed."""

They were deployed Aug 31. But you never take time to look for the good. Bashing the President is all you guys want to do. They were busy helping the people that listened to the call for evacuation. Can't be everywhere at once.

http://www.ima.army.mil/...s/news/ftpolkkatrina.asp

Hurricane Katrina: Fort Polk continues to assist
FORT POLK, La. (Aug. 31, 2005) - Fort Polk has deployed helicopters and crews in support of disaster relief actions for communities devastated by Hurricane Katrina. The deployment is in support of the Department of Defense's Joint Task Force Katrina under the command and control of the U.S. Northern Command. Two Fort Polk UH-60 Black Hawks and two UH-1 Hueys are providing ambulatory support to the Louisiana National Guard MEDEVAC assets in New Orleans. As part of the deployment, four pilots and 18 crew members have been sent to sustain continuous operations in support of the disaster relief effort. The helicopters and crews headed to Baton Rouge, La., this morning for further staging in support of the relief mission. Their current mission is to fly medical doctors into the Super Dome to provide triage to evacuees. They will also provide air ambulance support as needed. In addition, Fort Polk's unique support capabilities at the Intermediate Staging Area (ISB) at the Alexandria Airpark are being utilized to stage National Guard troops. Illinois, Louisiana and Texas National Guard troops will be staging at the ISB in preparation to launch in support of relief efforts. Evacuees currently at Fort Polk are registering with the Red Cross. By registering with the American Red Cross, evacuee's relatives and loved-ones will have a stable location and contact point for inquiries. The Red Cross has the resources and facilities set-up for this disaster relief and is available to all people in need. The Red Cross Reception Station is located at Pickering High School, 180 Lebleu Rd., Leesville, La. At the reception station, evacuees will be assigned a shelter where evacuees will register with the American Red Cross and be provided free shelter and free meals.

Hi, Peggy. Bush's friend Pat Buchanan wants to impeach him for not enforcing immigration laws. If the "new" New Orleans eventually consists of illegal immigrants replacing citizens covered by minimum wage laws, there will be a revolution in the country.

There might be, anyway, as long as Bush remains in charge. That is to say, he remains in charge of a federal government he considers the problem, not the solution to problems (see Reagan Doctrine). So as other posters have suggested, Bush is a man in charge of something he doesn't believe in to begin with. Which is how we get horse-show judges put in charge of emergency management teams.

Does the phrase "Emperor Without Shoes" apply here?

When will FEMA have trailors in Mississippi for displaced people? We need to all start pushing for FEMA to get these Mississippi staging areas together and give people a temporary home. People can not move forward until they have a chance to rest and try to assemble some type of mental order. A place we can call home, even if is temp, is a place to begin. Where are the TRAILORS????