READER COMMENTS ON
"Tilting at Windmills"
(62 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 8:32 pm PT...
U.S. ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY DEATHS
Under Bill Clinton, first term: 4302
Under George W, first term: 5187
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 8:36 pm PT...
It ain't tilting if the monster is real Kat.
Give 'em hell!
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 8:41 pm PT...
The "elected officials" will only take heed when they suffer attrition. Frist and Delay, are just the beginning. Others may fall by other means.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 8:57 pm PT...
big news for you, Jose: this ain't about Clinton!
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
Grizzly Bear Dancer
said on 9/23/2005 @ 9:09 pm PT...
Take care and keep us posted.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 9:37 pm PT...
That's what I like to hear!
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 10:31 pm PT...
Best and truest post I've seen in a long time by an individual!
I have concluded the exact same thing. I only wish I could afford to be in D.C. along with the other protestors.
I hope millions show up and we get some media coverage favorable to our side. I can wish can't I?
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 10:34 pm PT...
Thank you, Katrina! Great article! And can't wait to read your reports all weekend!
You are the light of the world!
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 10:56 pm PT...
Great post is right! Anyone interested in takin' it to the streets? If you're not, please don't click here
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 11:08 pm PT...
Your inspiring words left me ready to go out and sharpen my pitchfork. Go get 'um for those of us who can't be there in person but are with you in spirit!
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 9/23/2005 @ 11:38 pm PT...
It ain't me.....no lord, it ain't me.....I ain't no senators son, nooo....
It ain't me no oh lord it ain't me........I ain't no fortunate one, nooo....
Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
Prove they're red, white and blue....
And when the band plays "Hail to the Chief"
Oh, they point that cannon at you, Lord
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no senators son (yall)
It ain't me, oh it ain't me
I ain't no fortunate one, no
Yeh, some folks inherit star, spangled eyes,
ooh, they send you down to war, oh..Lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give,
oh, they only answer, more, more, more, yoh,
It ain't me, it ain't me...
I AIN'T NO MILLIONAIRE'S SON!!!
It ain't me, no it ain't me(no lord)
I AIN'T NO FORTUNATE ONE!!!!!!!
It ain't me, it ain't me!
I ain't no million dollar son, (lord no)
It ain't me, no it ain't me
I AIN'T NO FORTUNATE ONE!!!!!!!!
and when that band plays "Hail to the Chief",
they point that cannon at you, (no, no)
It ain't me, it ain't me
I ain't no rich man's, no senator's son (NO)
IT AIN'T ME, IT AIN'T ME
I ain't no fortunate one.... (no no no)
Stop the Iraq war.......TEAR DOWN THAT STONE FACED WALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 2:54 am PT...
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 3:25 am PT...
Amen! Thank you for representing! and for getting video and stills!
Perhaps one large primal scream may help to shake things up a little.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 4:06 am PT...
Excellent article Katrina! You have captured most of mythoughts are fears with the spirit of your words.
Please, all of you , caution and be safe.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
A Concerned Citizen
said on 9/24/2005 @ 5:33 am PT...
Katrina, your thoughts have been mine exactly. I admire you for doing something about it. I wish I could be there. As Steve and others have said, we're with you in spirit and support! Can't wait to see your pics and hear your first hand account of your experience. I also echo the words of caution, as we all know the extremes this administration will go to......
To me, it's so sad how all the democrats are leaving Washington. Sorta sums up, to me, the state of affairs by the "elected". The sooner people realize it's not the Dems against the Reps, the sooner we'll have the chance of doing something about all this. It's ALL of the them in this together. It's the haves against the havenots. We just need to get a fair election and do some major house cleaning and then hopefully some healing and repairs.
This event should wake many American's who have been lounging in front of CNN, MSNBC, FOX, and other corporate BS stations, being lied to and mislead. Guess we know who's behind it all from the symptoms. Hope they give it SOME coverage. Hope there's 2 million there!! Good luck Katrina, stay safe and tell them we're all on to them. They'll be leaving town FOR GOOD when we're all done!!!!! *said through very loud bullhorn*
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
Roger Drowne EC
said on 9/24/2005 @ 5:39 am PT...
HOW - ? the Founding Fathers & Mothers Told Us HOW ?
Please Read the Whole Document.... If U Want 2
WHEN IN THE COURSE OF HUMAN EVENTS
IT BECOMES NECESSARY for the PEOPLE of the United States
TO ALTER or ABOLISH the United States Government
as it exists in the year 2001 / 02 / 03 / 04 / 05 / 06
Using the Authority, Law, and Intentions of the Constitution
and the Declaration of Independence.
And Now the People Step Forward
and Charge High Treason,
and Show that Democracy in its roots today,
And that the Constitution has been Altered and Betrayed
in Favor of A Small Group of Millionaires,
the People of the United States
And that the Election Process is UN-fair
and has been Overwhelmed
and their millions of dollars
Scroll Down till You see Yellow link to
( Re-Written ) Declaration of Independence
Thank You, Roger@RogerART.com
AND... HAVE A GREAT DAY IN DC
Can't make it 2 DC Do what U Can From Where U R
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
Roger Drowne EC
said on 9/24/2005 @ 5:45 am PT...
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COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 7:39 am PT...
Thanks Kat, great article! Keep us posted
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 8:14 am PT...
Is that a play on the Eddy Murphy's Book Velvet Jones--- how to be a ho?
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 8:17 am PT...
Where are these folks, Yall remember them come election time.
""not speeking or attanding are Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada nor will House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi be speaking, nor will potential presidential candidates Sens. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, Hillary Rodham Clinton and John Kerry.""
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
A Concerned Citizen
said on 9/24/2005 @ 8:47 am PT...
To me, the Constitution did not make provisions for manipulated elections, placing key evil officials in roles to choose other key evil officials, to change the entire structure of our Constitution, to where it can be ripped to shreads and a dictatorship of the wealthy taking over.
It thought it had, but it never ever ever pictured our national media to sell us out, or elections being rigged, or both major parties to embrace an evil plot, or the rich to be so greedy, with corporate America taking over. Money does buy a lot.
Apparenty it bought our media, basic rights, many deaths, lots of suffering, our Constitution and possibly our nation.
Go everybody there in Washington!!!!!! I hope everything is going good for them. People are in jail for lies and illegal things they did while running companies - why is it anyone connected to the gov't is always above the law? None of them, with few exceptions, such as Rep. Conyers and a couple others, do a damn thing. Useless. No matter what party, no common sense, just bank accounts. Hope history shows many of them to be removed from illegal activities, and the rest replaced asap in future elections. It's not just Bush and Cheney, they are all guilty, imho.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 9:27 am PT...
I have faith that the American people are not going to let a few neo-con creeps take over our country. These creeps are not even Republicans, the Republicans should kick them out, too.
I can see the American people turning the tide on many things. It's slower because the MSM is "controlled", but it's stonger because it's being done the old fashioned way, by word of mouth. If the MSM was covering all these things, it would've been in the public's eye quicker, but not slower and stronger.
This is America, and we are Americans. Don't forget that. These creeps in office are Un-Patriotic, Un-America, please add to these adjectives if you wish...
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 9:34 am PT...
I recently watched the movie "Ghandi", and he said that throughout history, no matter how invincible evil leaders seem, they always fall. Very wise man.
I'd also like to add, that every great movement in America came from the American people. Every great movement credited to a politician, was actually a reaction from a huge outcry by the American people. Without that outcry, the politicians wouldn't have done anything. It always comes from the American people. It's happening right now.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 9:49 am PT...
Absolutely. We have become too complacent, comfortable with the lies and we must change it, before it is too late. We have a duty as citizens to speak out against the corruption and the destruction of everything that this country stands for country. I have been saying for months that we should make a pledge for at least one million citizens to do a sit down strike around the White House and Capital building and for the rest of us to bombard our officials and local media with letters DEMANDING that they look into the negligence of the Bush White House. It is time to bring these thieves down!
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 10:10 am PT...
How many people are watching the rally against war in c-span?
I love C-Span (unfiltered news)
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 10:36 am PT...
September 24, 2005 --- Anti-war protest in Washington, DC today. Very few Democratic members of Congress to appear. Reason: The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), according to Democratic insiders on Capitol Hill, put out the word that any member of Congress who appeared at the protest, where some speakers were to represent pro-Palestinian views, would face the political wrath of AIPAC. According to Democratic sources on the Hill, Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts was the chief conveyor of the AIPAC warning to his colleagues.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
Bill St James
said on 9/24/2005 @ 10:36 am PT...
I share the same frustrations that Katrina and others express here...and although I marched on Washington in November, 1969, distance and economics prevent me from doing the same today.
I'd like to point out one thing, however. Katrina says "no system of power ever has built into it any way for anyone to take the power away from those who hold it. Ever." The people who wrote the Constitution did a reasonable job of trying to limit the power that could potentially be amassed by our government. It's only been through our inattention and gullibility that those limits have been eroded and removed.
This crisis we face didn't start in the last five years, and until the critical mass of American citizens recognize ALL the aspects of the power we've slowly surrendered are we really going to make a difference. It's going to be very very difficult for a lot of us to realize that whether it's the ability to make war or the creation of a welfare state, every crumb of that abdicated power accumulates into the travesty that's become visible to almost everyone.
You can say, "well, war is bad" and "taxing people to help those less fortunate is good." Obviously, not all people will agree as to what is "good" or "bad," but what everyone ought to be able to recognize is that the MACHINERY created to make ANY of these things (aside from your own personal value judgments about them) happen means that it's now in place and individual citizens have lost the power, as Katrina points out. And because we've advanced this far down the road, the people holding the power feel invincible, which is why they're so blatant in exercising it now.
The recent hurricane devastation ought to make it abundantly clear that benevolence can't be legislated. The only thing that will be legislated are those things that will serve the ends of INCREASING the power grab. A lot of us are opposed to war (and likely this one in particular)...but if we don't accept the realization that it's the exact same powerlessness that permits the prosecution of any war without our approval that drives our encouragement of the government to play Santa Claus, we're never going to get out of the mess we're in.
We can never ever expect that if we just put our power in the hands of the "right folks" that everything will be peachy. We have to take it back...and there are many ways to do it. Hopefully this weekend will be a step in that direction.
My thanks to all who are putting it on the line.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
I am watching cspan but frankly I am not impressed with what I am seeing. Who organized these speakers? They are doing more harm than good. They are not representative of the American people and even the protesters are jeering and calling for them to stop so they can march. What the hell! These speakers reinforce the worst stereotypes of people against the war. 10 more minutes of this and Bush will be at 50% approval. I wish I was there so I could run backstage and pull the plug like that scene in Forest Gump. Please stop and march already.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 11:07 am PT...
To me, the Constitution did not make provisions for manipulated elections (you mean like the dead voting, double voting, illegal aliens voting, ballot stuffing and vote buying?), placing key evil officials in roles to choose other key evil officials (like Clinton placing the Arkansas trooper in charge of the troopergate coverup in charge of FEMA?), to change the entire structure of our Constitution (Like liberals on the supreme court to take public land for corporate use, make our laws based on other countries laws, liberal state judges OK'ing gay marriage?)
Hell, even the people in California one of the most liberal states reject gay marriage.
Why do you think the American public has elected so many republicans? We were tired of failed liberals policies.
Liberals HAVE to claim rigged elections otherwise their fellow liberals would have to admit the truth to themselves that they and their views are deemed unacceptable to the American people.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 11:16 am PT...
The crowd has left. I guess they went of to march but the speakers still rattle on. This is making me ill.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 12:26 pm PT...
You also obviously have no clue (or concern) of what the Constitution is.. it provides for the rights of ALL citizens, not just whites, or men, or hetrosexuals. The -fact- that you can't see that unalienable rights for "all men" means gays too, shows you have no repsect for the Constitution.. and anyone that thinks it's reasonable to limit rights of homosexuals is NOT an American.. Americans are tolerant and support our Constitution and the rights of ALL people, not just the affluent.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 12:33 pm PT...
Is there any video footage available anywhere of the marchers? Even still photos would be welcome.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 12:53 pm PT...
Heading out to my own local rally here. William Rivers Pitt over at truthout.org said this morning that CNN estimated the crowd in DC at 600,000!! I LOVE IT!!!! *bfg*
Katrina - Excellent thread - THANK YOU!!
HCOCDR - re: Velvet Revolution - glad you asked! (And btw, there are a LOT of people who would ask the same question - after all, there is a LOT going on in the world, and a lot to remember!)
re: Dems - Oh don't think we're letting them off easy, we have a laundry list a mile long of things they did NOT stand up for when they should have. When we make noise, we make noise to EVERYONE CONCERNED!!!
As we've said all along, this isn't about Democrats or Republicans, it's about AMERICA!
Nuclear Chemist - Bless your heart, you still don't get that we all have a common cause here in the election fraud issue. If you want to work towards fair and transparent elections, help us fight for OPEN SOURCE CODE!!! HELP US GET THE WORD OUT - THE MACHINES CAN BE HACKED - THE ELECTION CAN BE FIXED!!
Do you care only when it's DEMOCRATS involved?
Take some of that anger you've worked up against the mean ol' liberals and direct it towards those who would manipulate ANY election in this country!! We can do this!!!
Now, heading out, y'all be careful out there!!
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 1:01 pm PT...
Nuclear,I really seem to think that you thrive on bashing other peoples opinions,there are alot of unanswered questions here that need to be answered and anyone that isn't afraid of the truth might offer up some answers!Answer this, why does Bush need to know all questions that are to be asked of him in a press conference beforehand and will only take the ones that have been cleared by him?I'm curious as to why you subject yourself to this site if you are so pro Bush?I don't believe anyone here said that Democrats are all on the up and up. Everyone is entitled to their opinions,at least thats the way it used to be.
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 1:07 pm PT...
do you really want those people in charge?
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 1:19 pm PT...
Plowboy, let me take a stab at your question..
The only people that are supposed to get rights are those that are divinely chosen to have rights. Full access to rights of all forms isn't something that sub-humans (like blacks, aisians, arabs, gays, handicapped, etc) deserve. God doesn't want them to have the same rights as the rest of us.. that's why we're supposed to take care of them through the church.. giving a tithe is all that's required, the religious folks that are trying to make amends for their wrongs are the ones in the trenches handing out the food and supplies.. the ones that are doing good in God's eyes are rewarded with riches and only expected to drop their tithe off at church in Sundays to stay in good graces..
Or, at least, that -seems- to be the mentality of the right-wing and people like Nuclear Chemist. That's why it's O.K. for Repubs to cheat and lie, but not Dems.. God doesn't like Dems, but he likes Repubs.. probably because they are trying to force his will (and theirs) down everyone's throats.. like good little apostleizing christians..
Oh, wait.. then what's with the religious precept that "suffering now will grant rewards once you die" all about? Oh.. right.. so the rich folks can continue to keep the masses complacant about not seeing any wealth or freedoms while they are alive.. nevermind that there is no PROOF of anything existing after you die... well, cept a mound of goo as your body rots back into the earth..
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 2:51 pm PT...
Hey, I'm for gay rights. Division of property, all legal rights but, don't call it marriage. That is between a man and a woman. The VAST majority of Americans agree with my position. Why do you think republicans used that during the election for so much success???
If you have seen my earlier posts, I have demanded that fraud be eliminated from both sides. Unfortunately, many liberals are only interested in supposed republican fraud. Hell, even Brad linked to a site that stated that ballot stuffing, the dead voting, double voting, illegal alien voting by liberals is just a myth made up republicans. How many of you really believe that??? Is Brad interested in REAL voter reform or just in Diebold????? I support paper printouts (if you have that, you don't need the source code that competiters could steal and use for their own machines) but I also support voter ID cards that proves you are an American Citizen and, eligible to vote.
Yes, I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No matter how silly they are at times. The problem with Manic Obsessive Bush Haters is that they turn "opinion" into their own brands of fact. For example, I bet most of you believe the "fact" that Bush went to Iraq for oil. Please, show me how he or his cronies are profiting billions of dollars by selling Iraq oil. Oh wait, it's the Iraqi people who get this money. Well, Halliburton is getting money for building the oil wells and pipelines!!! Oh, they are only making a few tens of millions dollars. So, let me get this straight...Bush is spending billions so Halliburton can get a few million? How silly....
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 3:13 pm PT...
The Iraq war wasn't for oil the Iraq war was to CONTROL oil. That's why the PROFITS are only benefitting oil companies exclusively, that is why there is price gouging.
Look up the history....stop eating up the bullshit and you'll see WHY everyone's saying it.
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 3:14 pm PT...
Well, Chemist.. again you show your ignorance..
Look, Marriage should not even be a "legal" construct, period. It's a personal commitment between 2 people, if you want to be such a purist, then you have to concede that bringing -anything- legal into marriage is a desicration of the idea... otherwise, you're full of shit. But, here's the problem with your mentality.. IF (and since it is) marriage garners "any legal privalige", then you can't offer that "legal privalige" to only "certian people".. if -marriage- is between a "man and woman" in YOUR mind, and the mind of "most amerikans", then THEY can marry someone of the opposit gender.. have at it. What YOU (and those other brain-dead morons) are proposing is, limiting the access to the LEGAL rights that someone gets when they "make a long term commitment" to another human being..
As for your keeping your head up your ass when it comes to "facts" about Iraq.. here's some "facts" for you. There was a meeting a few weeks ago (just over a month, maybe?) of WORLD oil leaders... met in New York.. the purpose of their meeting? to divvy up Iraq's oil rights. They admitted that their deals wouldn't actually have legal merit yet.. the Iraqi Constitution would have to allow for it first (suprise, you pandering mornon.. the U.S. delegate to Iraq's parliment help adjust the Constitution to allow for the Iraq Government to SELL THE RIGHTS to the oil.. that means, once bought (for what ever price), the Iraqi people have NO MORE CLAIM to the oil.. ), then they would have to make deals with the "final government" to make it all binding.. so, as you see (well, maybe not... you are content to turn a blind eye), the ground work for taking all the oil is already laid.. the plan is unfolding.
As far as Halliburton.. what about the -fact- that they have gotten over $9 billion so far? 10s of millions? they why was it all no-bid? why are there Congressional investigations into this? what about the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS that are just missing? no record of where it went? Halliburton says "oops.. lost it".. that's not in the hands of those in charge? If you -honestly- believe that money is just "missing", you are hopeless. There are -also- all the contracts to "friendly countries" for reconstruction, and billions of missing IRAQI money now too..
Get a clue, Chemmy.. Your head up your ass is only enabling the fleecing and desctruction of the American way of life.. and our priciples. You will be just as abandoned as the rest of us when the richest 1% of this country take the 80% of the wealth (which they are slowing turning into cash) and walk away.. move to some other country, or to their islands.. Keep it up.. keep enableing.. once the shit hits the fan and you are left in the lurch, don't expect any sympathy from me..
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 3:57 pm PT...
#35- Compared to what? The people who are in charge now? I think the problem was with the organizers not the message. They had some really really good speakers but they also let the nuts have airtime. I would have stuck to the good speakers. Fired up the crowd (which would not be hard since they were chomping at the bit) and then start the march on time.
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 4:59 pm PT...
"Hell, even Brad linked to a site that stated that ballot stuffing, the dead voting, double voting, illegal alien voting by liberals is just a myth made up republicans. How many of you really believe that??? Is Brad interested in REAL voter reform or just in Diebold?????"
I'm not interested in "voter reform". The voters don't need reform. The folks who run elections, however, and the elections themselves need great reform.
If you can give me any evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to look at it. But so far, "voter fraud" and Photo ID is a solution in search of a problem. If it wasn't, then Photo ID would be required for absentee and military ballots as well in the wingnut recommendations. It isn't.
JO - C-SPAN was showing the last of the speakers in the elipse why the THOUSANDS who had showed up were marching to the White House. C-SPAN decided not to show that for some reason.
HCOCDR - I'd like grownups to be in charge in D.C. again, unlike the children and incompetent and corrupt cretins that have hijacked the place. If you had a shred of intellectual honesty, you would call for same. Unfortunately, you are too cowardly to support your country by calling for clean and accountable government or elections...and are clearly too afraid to put your name behind your cowardly potshots here.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 5:30 pm PT...
here's one example:
The East St. Louis Democratic Voter Fraud Case continued today (6/10/05) with the former Deputy East St. Louis Police Chief Rudy McIntosh taking the stand. Today the jurors heard tapes recorded by Rudy McIntosh where democrats discussed the amount they were planning on paying for votes in the November 2nd election. One of those charged, Kelvin Ellis, is also charged with attempted murder of a federal witness and running a prostitution ring from his office. Here is a recap of the damning evidence that the jury heard today:
The jury in the federal vote fraud case in East St. Louis heard undercover recordings today in which vote buying was discussed. The former deputy police chief for East St. Louis took the stand on Friday as a key prosecution witness.
Rudy McIntosh worked undercover for the FBI during the fall election campaign. McIntosh described a series of meetings he participated in with the five defendants, all members of the city's Democratic party organization. At the time McIntosh was a new precinct committeeman learning the political ropes.
He testified former city official Kelvin Ellis told him how to buy absentee votes for $5 a piece. Defense attorneys repeated objected to testimony. Several times Judge Patrick Murphy sent the jury out of the room to hear their arguments.
One undercover tape played for the jury had McIntosh talking to party leader Charles Powell. McIntosh said "Five dollars a vote ain't gonna get it." Powell responded, "I know what you're saying. Give them five dollars...ten dollars a vote."
These guys were convicted. But this is typical in democratic strongholds. Even the old Mayor Daley defended the practice since everyone does it.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 5:51 pm PT...
Inquiry finds evidence of fraud in election
Cast ballots outnumber voters by 4,609
By GREG J. BOROWSKI
Posted: May 10, 2005
Investigators said Tuesday they found clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee, including more than 200 cases of felons voting illegally and more than 100 people who voted twice, used fake names or false addresses or voted in the name of a dead person.
Officials said charges will be filed in coming weeks, as individual cases are reviewed and more evidence is gathered.
Nonetheless, it is likely that many - perhaps most - of those who committed fraud won't face prosecution because city records are so sloppy that it will be difficult to establish cases that will stand up in court.
And even now, three months after the investigation, officials have not been able to close a gap of 7,000 votes, with more ballots cast than voters listed. Officials said the gap remains at 4,609.
U.S. Attorney Steve Biskupic likened it to trying to prove "a bank embezzlement if the bank cannot tell how much money was there in the first place."
Biskupic announced the preliminary findings at a news conference, along with Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann, who is also overseeing the joint inquiry.
Tuesday's announcement comes after a Journal Sentinel investigation that found widespread problems with the election in the city, including that the election totals themselves were not double-checked by city and county panels charged with doing so.
Some of the problems identified by the newspaper, such as spotty compliance with procedures to verify same-day registrants, are broader and are the subject of a statewide audit approved by lawmakers.
Tuesday's announcement could breathe new life into the Republican-backed photo ID debate, which did not survive a veto from Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle and might instead eventually go to voters as a proposed constitutional amendment.
A photo ID requirement might have caught some of the problems highlighted in Tuesday's preliminary report. It notes cases of people voting in the name of a dead person or as someone else. Investigators located some people listed as voting who said they did not vote.
In other cases, according to Tuesday's report, people "registered and voted with identities and addresses that cannot in any way be linked to a real person."
Officials did not identify how many fit each category.
Investigators have focused only on the City of Milwaukee in reviewing duplicate-voting offenses. Officials said Tuesday, though, that they would expand the review of felons voting illegally to Milwaukee suburbs.
The newspaper found at least 278 felons who voted statewide, though only a partial review could be completed because of a state law that bars public access to birthdates of voters.
Tracking illegal votes
The fraud investigation has focused on the more than 70,000 people who registered to vote on election day, not the other 200,000-plus voters. That is because registration cards provide a paper trail, which officials said would be stronger in court than computerized records.
It is unclear what identification these 100-plus people provided at the polls to register. State law allows utility bills and leases to be used or for one voter to vouch for another.
Biskupic, appointed by a Republican, and McCann, a Democrat, said they had pledged to avoid partisanship in the matter and avoided questions relating to reforms and proposals.
The announcement, though, prompted renewed calls for photo ID from Republicans, while Doyle pushed again for his set of reforms, which he said would do more to tackle specific problems.
For instance, investigators found "deputy registrars" working for registration drives had submitted at least 65 fake names, though no one apparently voted from the addresses. Doyle's plan would prohibit offering financial incentives, such as paying by the signature, in such drives.
In Madison, Doyle said a photo ID requirement is unnecessary. He urged prosecution of any offenders.
"I don't think many people, if they know there are real consequences for voting twice, and that there have been prosecutions for voting twice, are going to do it because the risk of being caught and the penalty far outweighs the advantage of casting one extra vote," Doyle said.
In response to the findings, Sen. Joe Leibham (R-Sheboygan) said as early as next month he would advance a bill similar to the one vetoed by Doyle. It also could be part of the recommendations from a Legislative Council task force that has been meeting on reforms.
While Doyle has argued the measure would make Wisconsin one of the strictest states in the nation, very few other states allow same-day registration.
Assembly Speaker John Gard (R-Peshtigo) said if Doyle again vetoes the requirement, he would move to make it part of the state constitution, a two-year process that requires a statewide referendum but does not require the approval of the governor.
"The next presidential election in Wisconsin, I guarantee you'll need a photo ID to vote," said Gard, who is running for the U.S. House. "I'll get this done if it is the last thing I do around here."
U.S. Rep. Mark Green, a Green Bay Republican who has introduced a national photo ID requirement, said: "People are having their faith in the election system shaken. This news will make it much, much worse."
Green is running for governor, as is Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker, who also backs a photo ID requirement.
"Clearly, there is proof that fraud took place in the November 2 election," Walker said.
Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett attended the news conference, an unusual occurrence for an announcement by prosecutors.
From the start, Barrett said he welcomed the inquiry but also noted at several points in recent months that he had seen no hard evidence of fraud in the system.
He acknowledged Tuesday the findings pointed to fraud and said again "any individual who committed fraud (should) be prosecuted."
Asked if a photo ID requirement would have made a difference, he said it would not have prevented felons from voting and would have had little impact on other problems.
Biskupic said there was no indication of a widespread conspiracy to commit voter fraud, or of any knowledge or involvement by poll workers or any other city officials.
The city's record-keeping problems meant investigators from the FBI and Milwaukee Police Department have logged more than 1,000 hours reviewing the 70,000 same-day registration cards, including 1,300 that could not be processed because of missing names, addresses and other information.
Indeed, about 100 cards described as "of interest to investigators" cannot be located, officials said. And within the past few weeks, police found a previously lost box of the cards at the Election Commission offices.
Biskupic and McCann said they remain troubled that three months after the investigation began that city officials have been unable to account for a gap of about 4,600 votes, with more ballots counted than people listed as voting.
That reflects a new assessment of the 7,000-vote gap first identified by the Journal Sentinel. Although city election officials initially blamed postelection data entry for the flaws, the newspaper found gaps existed at dozens of wards, with more votes counted than people tallied in log books.
The gap has been narrowed to 4,600 by a closer review of election day logs and other records, which authorities placed off-limits to the newspaper during the investigation.
McCann said: "I will not be satisfied if we cannot uncover that - what the explanation is, or a reasonable explanation."
In all, about 277,000 people in Milwaukee voted in the election. Thus, the cases identified in the investigation constitute a small portion of the total vote.
The findings, however, carry extra significance in a state that had an 11,000-vote margin in the presidential contest, one of the closest in the nation.
Democrat John Kerry topped President Bush in Wisconsin, mainly because of Kerry's margin in Milwaukee and Madison.
Had a larger state, such as Ohio, gone the other way, it could have led to a Florida-style recount here that would have turned on many of the issues that instead were left for the newspaper to uncover in its extensive investigation.
The federal-local investigation was launched Jan. 26, a day after the Journal Sentinel reported that some 1,200 votes in the November election came from invalid addresses.
Among other findings, some 1,300 same-day registration cards were processed by poll workers who allowed people to vote even though the cards were incomplete. Some 548 had no address listed and 48 gave no name - yet the person was allowed to vote. Another 141 listed addresses outside the city.
The newspaper was denied access to those cards, on the recommendation of the city attorney's office, citing the inquiry.
Reviewing information it had access to, including a computerized list of people recorded as voting, the newspaper identified at least 278 felons who illegally voted statewide, though the vast majority came from within the city.
The real number is likely far higher because the newspaper was able to review only about 38% of the 2.98 million people who voted in the state because of the law that bars access to birth dates. The newspaper was able to link various databases and compare them to a state list of felons on probation or parole at the time of the election.
In response to the newspaper's reports, Doyle and many Republican lawmakers said that rule should be rescinded.
In Wisconsin, only felons who have completed probation or parole are allowed to vote.
Biskupic and McCann said these cases can be hard to prosecute, since it must be established that the felon knew he or she was not allowed to vote and voted anyway.
Thus it is unclear how many of the 200 felons investigators had identified will ultimately be charged.
The newspaper also identified numerous cases in Milwaukee where the same person appears to have voted twice, though that analysis was hampered by major computer problems at the city.
Those problems, which city officials labeled a "glitch," meant hundreds upon hundreds of cases where people are incorrectly listed as voting twice. These are in addition to cases of double voting identified by investigators.
The investigators have been focusing on 100-plus cases in this area. The cases take on many forms.
For instance, non-residents used non-existent city addresses to vote in Milwaukee. Officials are checking to see if they also voted elsewhere, such as from their actual address.
Officials indicated some of the fraud cases could be handled at the federal level because the election involved federal candidates, while other cases could involve state charges.
McCann and Biskupic asked anyone with information on possible fraud call the election task force at (414) 935-7802.
In March, Lisa Artison, a Barrett appointee, resigned as executive director of the Election Commission. She had been under fire for her handling of the election.
Sharon Robinson, head of the Department of Administration, has been overseeing the office and is chairing a city task force reviewing the election. Its report could be issued this month.
Patrick Marley of the Journal Sentinel staff contributed to this report.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 7:31 pm PT...
OK Nuclear, I'm WELL AWARE of the massive voter fraud in those democratic cities. And there is still just as many republican voter fraud in those republican cities also, so it is not just ONE side!
The point is, the machines are frauds themselves. They are insecure, they are not auditable, they do not have MANDATORY RECOUNT AUDITS in place yet and anyone can use them to malfunction or steal elections.
So the machines should be flat out taken away from the process. TAKE THE MACHINES AWAY, FORCE THE CORPORATIONS OUT OF THE VOTE COUNTING, AND THEN HAVE PHOTO ID LAWS.
I agree with that then. First take the machines completely out, and then EVERYONE can be required to have a photo ID. Otherwise, there is no point to the election reform.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 7:46 pm PT...
As journalist Byron York has reported, it's not really true that the company (Halliburton) got its work without competitive bidding. In the 1990s, the military looked for ways to get outside help handling the logistics associated with foreign interventions. It came up with the U.S. Army Logistics Civil Augmentation Program, or LOGCAP. The program is a multiyear contract for a corporation to be on call to provide whatever services might be needed quickly.
Halliburton won a competitive bidding process for LOGCAP in 2001. So it was natural to turn to it (actually, to its wholly owned subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root) for prewar planning about handling oil fires in Iraq. "To invite other contractors to compete to perform a highly classified requirement that Kellogg Brown & Root was already under a competitively awarded contract to perform would have been a wasteful duplication of effort," the Army Corps of Engineers commander has written.
Then, in February 2003, the Corps of Engineers gave Halliburton a temporary no-bid contract to implement its classified oil-fire plan. The thinking was it would be absurd to undertake the drawn-out contracting process on the verge of war. If the administration had done that and there had been catastrophic fires, it would now be considered evidence of insufficient postwar planning. And Halliburton was an obvious choice, since it put out 350 oil-well fires in Kuwait after the first Gulf War.
The Clinton administration made the same calculation in its own dealings with Halliburton. The company had won the LOGCAP in 1992, then lost it in 1997. The Clinton administration nonetheless awarded a no-bid contract to Halliburton to continue its work in the Balkans supporting the U.S. peacekeeping mission there because it made little sense to change midstream. According to Byron York, Al Gore's reinventing-government panel even singled out Halliburton for praise for its military logistics work.
So, did Clinton and Gore involve the United States in the Balkans to benefit Halliburton? That charge makes as much sense as the one that Democrats are hurling at Bush now. Would that they directed more of their outrage at the people in Iraq who want to sabotage the country's oil infrastructure, rather than at the U.S. corporation charged with helping repair it.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 8:28 pm PT...
Byron York likes to spin disinformation for a living. Even if he doesn't believe it or isn't sure about it he spits it out.
The truth about Halliburton is it was originally called Kellog Brown & Root, and under several other republican administrations....especially "Iran-Contra" ronnie, engaged in criminal acts relating to treason.
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
said on 9/24/2005 @ 11:48 pm PT...
"Byron York likes to spin disinformation for a living."
So, are you saying Clinton never hired Halliburton under a no-bid contract??? Nah, I didn't think so.
"OK Nuclear, I'm WELL AWARE of the massive voter fraud in those democratic cities. And there is still just as many republican voter fraud in those republican cities also, so it is not just ONE side!"
That probably is the case but why is it that only liberals are always getting caught doing it. Can you support with facts that republican cities are doing it? And yes, I agree the machines should be auditable. Like I've said, I don't like cheating of any type.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 1:40 am PT...
Voting, Equal Benefits Under the Law and plain ol' compassion.
Each American; Black, White, Hispanic, Pagen, Gay, Poor, Rich, Farmer, Banker, House Keeper, Mormon... owns one share of stock in America. That "share" is their vote. When any citizen seaks to null and void or change anothers "share" in America they are a traitor.
Equal Benefits Under the Law: As citizens of this country we are born with basic civil rights. When we, as a divided nation, choose as to who is worthy of those rights and who is not we are in big a$$ trouble ~ it's called meddling, bigotry and in my eyes Un-American.
It is better to give than receie=ve. There are many who long for the good ol' days. Perheaps we misinterpret their goal. There was a time when we were all Americans ~ and throughout that time there have been citizns considered "less than equal'. One thing we have learned, and in some cases have forced upon us, is that "separate is never equal". If we are to have a strong nation we must stop pulling out threads from our flag. Fact is: Our nation is like our flag, each citizen a thread. When we start pulling threads out of the fabric it becomes weaker. When did we get to the point where all the white threads were removed leaving us with a red and blue country? Our greatest strength, as a nation, is our diversity and anyone who has a problem with that needs to seek therapy and another country to move to.
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 2:44 am PT...
Check out New Jersey. Tons of voter fraud by republicans. Also Kentucky and then Florida's home to the worst voter disenfranchisement in the nation.
Its on BOTH sides....and yes Clinton did the same no-bid contracts. But Halliburton was corrupt long before that, back with Ronald Reagan and friends.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 8:39 am PT...
Very well stated. As far as the good old days, I wish that was true. I wasn't around for WW II but it must have been a great time when Americans would rally around the President during war or even natural disasters regardless of their political affiliation.
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 10:33 am PT...
First, with regard to your articles about fraud.. One of your examples is of a guy engaged in prostitution and other serious crimes...? Ok, no doubt he's a very bad guy (morally speaking).. are you asserting he only trafficed in Democrat votes? or do you think his "explaining how to buy votes" could be used on both sides? Not to mention that your article (well, not that I noticed.. I started skimming once I saw he was such a serious criminal and there was no mention of "democrat votes") doesn't say he "engaged in buying votes", simply that he was explaining to someone how to do it.. See, I could explain how to kill someone, that doesn't make me a murderer, nor does it make me a co-conspiritor (though, I grant you.. it's likely this guy was guilty)..
Your second article shows that 200 felons voted, and 100 people "seemingly" double voted? that's 400 votes? who cares?.. for one.. and for 2, that doesn't sway an election, does it?.. and 3, you make no claim as to whom they voted for.. which means we need to clean up the voting process, not bash "dems" or "republicans".. clean .. up .. the ... process.. And, just like you pointed out.. up to 4600 more votes in Milwakee than voters? not a good thing.. course, that still doesn't show or prove that the hanky-panky was on the Dems side, or Repub side.. and, at least, you can go and recount those votes.. right?
As for your attack on my logic.. as usual, you fail to make a valid argument. Brothers marrying? Well, other than the serious dysfunction involved and abuses that must have occured as children (or, they are trying t scam the legal system and use marriage loopholes while they are both single).. I can't see that making any sense.. Brother-Sister? again, dysfunctional situation, BUT, also has the problem of genetic mutations being VERY likly.. just like up to first cousins.. why do you think it's illegal to marry your cousin in most places? Morality? if that's the -only- reason, then it's not a good one.. no.. the reason is the propencity for genetic mutation... just like Incest (not to mention that incest with minors is a totally different boat.. and incest between adult family members goes back to serious mental issues and dysfunction). Given the understanding of WHY you can't marry your sister or cousin shows the very limited nature of the law prohibiting "certian marriages".. what is the "good reason" not to let 2 people who are completely unrelated and fall in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together have the legal perks that goes with that descision? Not letting family members do it -also- prevents exploitatin of the law..
Again, as I understand "marriage" in general, there shouldn't even be "perks" under the law for it.. leave it be an arragnement between 2 people, why all the legal crap? The "idea" of marriage is supposed to be "I love you and you love me and we commit to each other for ever more".. not "hey, we get a tax credit and I can sign for you and my debt is now your debt and when we leave I have to take care of you anyway".. I understand the "legal protections" that goes along with marriage, but if you have that protection, and I have that protection, and there is no good reason not to afford someone else that protection, then why discriminate? Good reasons for not letting family members do it are genetic and exploitative.. everyone else should have the same rights.. period..
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 10:52 am PT...
Oh.. and Nuke.. you still haven't addressed the $9 billion given to Halliburton.. Regardless of our government officials signing a "long term no questions asked" kind of contract (which our Government should not be doing), to say they aren't getting filthy rich on Tax Dollars is foolish. And I don't support Clinton having done it either..
Why are you stuck on "leave us alone! you dirty liberals and democrats did something iky once too!" ? .. We are trying to "fix our government".. it just happens that it's slipping MUCH faster into the abyss with Repugs in charge, that's all. I've not been a fan of the U.S. Government for a LONG time, regardless of who was in office.. know why? You see a lot of corrupt Dems in office too.. know what the difference is? The Dems at least give you a reacharound while they are screwing you.. well, they used to... more and more they are becoming like Repugs and just slapping a dollar bill on your ass as they walk away ..
The GOVERNMENT needs to be CLEANED UP.. This ILLEGAL war needs to END.. The CORRUPT POLITICIANS need to be rooted out and charged with their crimes.. Our system needs to be adjusted to REMOVE CORPERATE INTERESTS from government.. what's good for business is NOT good for "people".. The government "of the people, by the people, FOR the people" has been stolen.. it's time to take it BACK, period..
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 12:00 pm PT...
Your contention that we should be directing our outrage at the people of Iraq is quaint.
I can only speak for myself, when I say that I take exception to being led into this illeagle war by deception (alleged WMD, 9/11 terroroists, etc.), and encouraged to "stay the course", for the
The events that are un-folding in Iraq and Afghanistan are indefensible on every level.
Bushco is establishing permanent military bases along the oil pipeline route to Turkminstan and eventualy Iran.
Under this administration it is all about the black gold. American, Afghani, Iraqi....it doesn't matter what your race is ...your blood is turned to gold.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 12:07 pm PT...
"What YOU (and those other brain-dead morons) are proposing is, limiting the access to the LEGAL rights that someone gets when they "make a long term commitment" to another human being.."
What you fail to realize in your pitifull attempt at logic is that there is no logic to "a long term commitment to another human being" being a basis for marrige. Using your deranged logic, if two guys want to get married, they can. Why not two brothers or, how about a father and a son, a son and a mom... you get the point. Your moral errosion of our society is a major reason voters reject democrats at the voting box. Hell, even a majority of African Americans, your largest base is against same sex marriage.
For your information bud, this is America. The American people have overwhelmingly rejected same sex marriage every time it comes up on the ballot (except San Fransisco). If you don't like how the majority voted, pack up your frikin bags and move to some place that supports gay marriage.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 3:58 pm PT...
Wow, Kat, really a good article. Proud of you and please be safe and careful.
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 4:14 pm PT...
Are you an idiot or do you just play one in the blogsphere?
"are you asserting he only trafficed in Democrat votes? or do you think his "explaining how to buy votes" could be used on both sides?"
What part of this led to that stupid question:
"Today the jurors heard tapes recorded by Rudy McIntosh where democrats discussed the amount THEY were PLANNING on PAYING for votes in the November 2nd election." I think that is fairly clear... except to people in denial.
Man, you are just Stuck on Stupid!!!
"Your second article shows that 200 felons voted, and 100 people "seemingly" double voted? that's 400 votes? who cares?.. for one.. and for 2, that doesn't sway an election, does it?.. "
Well, the Govenor of Washington State won by 133 votes, Bush won Florida in 2000 by 500 votes. So, you think illegal voting is OK, as long as it's what, less than a thousand votes a city???
As far as marriage, I never said that gays shouldn't have full legal rights, just don't call it marriage.
"Why are you stuck on "leave us alone! you dirty liberals and democrats did something iky once too!" ? .. We are trying to "fix our government".. it just happens that it's slipping MUCH faster into the abyss with Repugs in charge, that's all.'
Oh BULLSH*T. You are compaining about the same thing liberals did but back then, it wasn't a problem. Did you demonstate against Clinton when he bombed Bosnia without U.N. permission? Did you complain about Clinton when he nominated a former Arkansas state trooper who was in charge of the trooper-gate coverup to the head of FEMA?? Has ANYONE here at this site complained about the New Orleans Levee board stole money from the funds for levee improvement? Or how the New Orleans mayor or the govenor failed to get the poor out of New Orleans? Of course not because they are democrats. If they were republicans, you would be all over this.
You are NOT trying to fix the government. All you are trying to do is smear republicans.
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 6:27 pm PT...
BULLSHIT. I have never seen such crap come out of your mouth, Clintons' first term left an incredible job surplus and increase no thanks to the crooked repubs.
Also I was against the bullshit war in Serbia and all the crooked politicans back then, as well. I've never fully respected Clinton and I sure as hell didn't believe in the bullshit tax cuts.
In the end it was better than the alternative, but that's all as far as I can tell. I am AGAINST crooked politicians of any sort, unlike you.
I want to clean them all out and I want to put it back in the people's hands, period. That means get rid of all the crooked Louisiana democrats, Mississippi Republicans, and everyone like Bill Frist. And it means put them back in jail and slap the cuffs. A total clean out. I don't get where you don't understand the word. But I guess all those years in an alternate reality, has that affect on someone ay?
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 8:16 pm PT...
He testified former city official Kelvin Ellis told him how to buy absentee votes for $5 a piece."
Forgive me for seeing that sepperate paragraph and not tieing his name back 2 paragraphs earlier where they said he was also being charged with murder and prostitution.. My bad..
with "What part of this led to that stupid question:
"Today the jurors heard tapes recorded by Rudy McIntosh where democrats discussed the amount THEY were PLANNING on PAYING for votes in the November 2nd election." I think that is fairly clear... except to people in denial."
again, the guy named was also charged with attempted murder and prostitution.. does that mean all Democrats are murderers and pimps? What I was getting at was, the kind of person that is a true criminal like that, isn't likely to be just trafficing in democrat votes, he's likely to be trafficing in anything that will get him money. While the "other people charged" were dealing in Democrat votes, the "really bad guy" was -probably- doing more than that..
and.. again.. I don't approve of -any- fraud dealing with elections, and I think -everyone- involved in -any- illegal activity, from -either- side, should be prosecuted.. Why can't you acknowledge that -my- position is to stomp out ALL corruption in our government? From -both- sides?
You keep getting hung up on my perception that since Republicans like to push their "moral agenda" and "religious agenda" on me, and like to help the "haves" get more at the expense of the "have nots", I must not want a valid government in office.
Yes.. I am guilty of reading that first case of democrats buying votes too fast and thinking the named person was a set of seperate charges.. missed the bit "one of the charged"..
"Well, the Govenor of Washington State won by 133 votes, Bush won Florida in 2000 by 500 votes. So, you think illegal voting is OK, as long as it's what, less than a thousand votes a city???"
don't know anything about Washington.. and to say Bush won Florida in 2000 (by any amount) is to admit you didn't pay attention when the recount was STOPPED and the COURT decided Bush won.. the votes were not counted. I watch the press releases.. I watch the joke unfold.. If your washington bit is accurate, then yeah.. I guess 400 illlegal votes could sway the election.. but then, you are also STILL implying only Democrats do such things.. we KNOW that's not the case, it's happening on both side of the isle.. difference is, you STILL don't want to admit your bunch does it too.. you STILL insist on trying to paint "liberals" as "bad people".. As is being -proved- here, when you bring up a -fact-, we at least have the decency to accept it.. Can't tell ya how many times I've watched people just like you turn your nose up to facts cause they didn't fit your agenda. I have 1 agenda.. use truth and fact to instill policy that is in the best interest of the PEOPLE and make sure all policy is made in the spirit of the Constitution of the United States. Republicans can't say the same thing.. sorry.. Democrats tend to have the same agenda as I do.. yet we are seeing more and more straying from that principle.. and more and more crooked Democrats as time goes on.. I have the perception that we now have Republicans and Repubocrats.. People looking out for the masses are gone.. people who want "freedom for all Americans" are no longer in government.. it's all about corperate interests now... and that's bad for people.
As far as Clinton.. get over it.. He did a much better job in office than Bush.. DESPITE his doing things he shouldn't have.. that does NOT mean I "support" or "condone" any illegal or unconstitutional acts he committed.. but that's what makes me different than you. You suckle on the Shrubman depsite his killing this country and blindly lash out at "those crazy yellow bellied tin-foil hat wearing liberals" and refuse to accept that "your guy" is heinous.. Does that excuse Clinton? no.. but guess what.. he's not in office now.. Guess why most people don't give a shit about what Clinton was doing? cause he was ALSO fixing our deficit (gave us a surpluss.. I notice you guys never comment on that point.. tired of being shown that Democrats really -are- fiscally responsible? blows your base argument to all hell and back?) and trying to get more jobs (real jobs, not service industry jobs).. Personally, I"m pretty pissed about NAFTA.. and when I found out about the bombings he did, lost more repsect for him too.. and lost all respect for him as a person over the blow-job.. not because he got a hummer, but because he cheated on his wife.. and I dispise her for staying with him. Though, infidelity is rampant among the affluent, it's part of their nature.. the same nature that lets them screw Americans daily.. which, again, is why -I- dislike POLITICIANS.. not -just- Republicans.. I just happen to dislike them MORE, that's all..
heh.. sorry about the book.. tis the last time I'll respond to the trolls.. really
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
said on 9/25/2005 @ 8:24 pm PT...
damn.. forgot this bit..
"As far as marriage, I never said that gays shouldn't have full legal rights, just don't call it marriage."
Well, then under the law, there should be no "marriage".. there should ONLY be "legal unions" that apply to -all- .. er.. unions.. if YOU want to have the word "marriage" to be something "special", then use it in your own context.. that's fine. But, if you start having 2 legal terms for the same condition but one term applies to one group and the other term applies to the other group, you leave a LOT of room for abuse.. right?
I also noticed you didn't bother to touch on the justifications for current laws and how they have no merit to your argument or their lack of application to homosexuals.
You can't say you are all for "equal rights" and also say "but those rights should be defined seperately and subject to potential differing inclusions in the future".. Either you -really- believe in equal rights for couples under the law (regardless of calling it marriage or not), or you do not.. If you truely believe in the equality of rights, then get over your hangup on the definition of "marriage".. not being able to adapt to change is one of the failings of small minded people. Marriage can JUST as easily be "2 people" as "man and woman".. your personal hangup on that splitting of a hair says a lot about you..
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
said on 9/26/2005 @ 12:30 pm PT...
Remember the names of the Democrats who left town and those who didn't.
Rep. Barbara Lee's A Resolution for Inquiry which would have been the beginnings of Impeachment failed by one vote. Please keep up with:
hcocdr is not to be trusted, spents all day posting government propaganda instead of doing his military job or is disinformation his job? He may be posting under other names. Watch out for agent provocators.
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
said on 9/26/2005 @ 12:35 pm PT...
Over 50 Katrina evacuees have died in TX 14 Sep 2005 Medical examiners says at least 53 Hurricane Katrina evacuees from the New Orleans area have died since coming to Texas.
"It reminded her of a concentration camp" Concertina wire separates people, beach areas 09 Sep 2005 Double rows of coiled razor wire went up along the railroad tracks in Long Beach and Gulfport (MS) to keep people out of the most severely damaged areas of the cities. And it's coming for Pass Christian and parts of Biloxi, according the Col. Joe Spraggins, director of emergency operations in Harrison County... When Lynn Bauer drove along Railroad Avenue in Long Beach on Friday morning, she was shocked to see a fence crew based out of Lumberton laying the wire... When Bauer saw the razor wire, she said she was hurt. It reminded her of a concentration camp.
I just got back from a FEMA Detainment Camp
Iím extremely depressed to report that things seem to only be getting sadder concerning the people so devastatingly affected by Katrina last week.
View this story online at:
FEMA is giving proof that the have the "Final Solution" in their concentration camps.
Refugees from New Orleans behind barbed wire in Utah
Posted on Wednesday, September 07
Utah's Governor Jon Huntsman has taken in some of the New Orleans refugees, at Camp Williams. Replete with barbed wire, armed soldiers with weapons at ready, police and sheriff with weapons at ready, and hell, they must surely feel right at home. In America yet. What bulls**t! Iím not done with this outrage, not by a long shot. Iím actually just getting started.
Denver Post even used this phrase about what is happening to the NOLA Detainees:
Evacueesí stories are moving, but fence isn't
Article Last Updated: 09/07/2005 03:37:49 AM
By Diane Carman
If I didnít know better, Iíd have thought I was peering through the fence at a concentration camp. (more)
Thursday :: Sep 8, 2005
Welcome To George's Holiday Camp
Here we go again.
The other day, I wrote about Katrina evacuees being taken to Utah with no prior knowledge of their destination, and that they were reportedly being kept behind barbed wire.......
And then there is that report I have noted in recent days of the 1,000 evacuees flown to Roosevelt Roads naval base on Puerto Rico's eastern tip. What of them?
Please send questions to Congress.organd media:
Why are Evacuees Being Sent to Puerto Rico Against Their Will?
The Katrina Evacuees are being treated like POWs behind fences, not allowed to leave with heavy military guard. Please investigate and help these survivors of Katrina who are being treated like Gitmo detainees. They haven't committed any crime! The following article has a photograph of two very unhappy, oppressed and worn looking women behind orange fence.
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
said on 9/26/2005 @ 6:26 pm PT...
Katrina, Thanks for that post. Keep 'em coming. So, the word was out from aipac to the dems. I think we need some new dems. Saw Leahy laughing and talking while a black pastor was testifying on eminent domain...his church has been taken. That's it for me with Leahy. That pastor, when he was done..looked up at the senators with a very hurt look in his eyes. Spectre, the little jerk from S.C. and Leahy were all rude and didn't care. Cspan should be commended for aiming the camera at those senators unexpectedly. I would vote for rep. walter jones from nc over a dem. who showed no feeling for the dispossed. shows how the debacle that used to be New Orleans happened.