"Dieb Throat" and "electile dysfunction" are great puns. Puns are attention-getters, and we have to get the media's attention to expose Diebold.

Here one other I came up with:

OPTICAL-SCAM MACHINES

Let's put together a collection.

A former VP at Diebold told me that execs were "encouraged" by Big Wally to donate money (say $2,000 or so) to the Republican party each year. They were not REQUIRED to, but their chances for promotion, even continued employment, were greatly enhanced. Extortion, anyone? :plain:

Same deal as the Bush administration...plutocrats, financial promises, cronyism, quid pro quos. Ohio is the Bush administration in miniature, as follows:

Ohio: Diebold=U.S.: Halliburton

Ohio: O'Dell=U.S.: Cheney

Ohio: Noe=U.S.: Abramoff/DeLay

Ohio: Blackwell=U.S.: Jeb Bush/Feeney

Ohio: Gov. Taft=U.S.: President Bush 43

Ohio: Willam Howard Taft=U.S.: President Bush 41

I need some help folks. On another blog that is not so political, I am bringing up the issue of election fraud, I feel we need to do this - spread the word. Knowing not much about what happend in Florida in 00, can someone help me craft a response to this guy? Here is his: I can tell you as an absentee voter in the military during the 2000 election what was attempted to happen to the absentee vote in FL. When the dems were demanding a statewide recount the GOP said okay, then all late absentee ballets as well as current absentee recounts would be tallied (under Federal law, all late ballots are to be counted in recounts and run-offs). The dems sued to not have my vote counted. They lost, thank God. So, do I trust the system? For the most part yes. If there was this widespread control by either party the other party would be screaming. Where is the screaming by our reps?

The first thing would be to check his facts. There
was a controversy about some of the military ballots
because the law required that they be postmarked
and many of them weren't, and the potential for
ballot-box stuffing after the fact of a close election
makes accepting unpostmarked ballots a problem. I
believe Senator Liebermann intervened and the
military ballots were all counted.

I have never heard of any law providing for late
absentee ballots to be counted in recounts, and I'd be
very curious to see the source of this information.

"Dieb Throat" should be the name of the new voting machine.

It will loose the votes so deep in itself that recounts will be meaningless.

The black hole of voting machines: Dieb Throat.

We must dare the media to talk about this, where's Oprah? (Yes I'm being weird bringing her up, but I'm desperate!) On all this immoral voting crap going on she could make a difference in the integrity of voting without showing her partisan take. I wish she'd stop wasting her clout in this arena. (Yes she does a lot of good, but sorry she has the power to make change and is wasting it in reference to our countrie's future.)

Maybe Oprah could review the Conyers report, or a Fitrakis book/article, on her program? Does she have an e-mail address (at work, of course, not at home) that 6 or 7 of us could use to urge her to explore the issue, for the sake of each and everyone of us Americans?

Diebold installed software patches "never certified by the state."... Heavy Democratic counties ended up electing Republicans ... DIEB-THROAT says such patches have been installed "many times," it's just that Diebold "got caught in Georgia and California." ... Diebold ballots can be programmed to reject certain types of votes...

If they got cough and if they have the proof that this is going on someone in Georga and California needs to talk to the D.A. Someone needs to be indicted before the MSM will cover it.

Diebold installed software patches "never certified by the state."... Heavy Democratic counties ended up electing Republicans ... DIEB-THROAT says such patches have been installed "many times," it's just that Diebold "got caught in Georgia and California." ... Diebold ballots can be programmed to reject certain types of votes...

If they got cough and if they have the proof that this is going on someone in Georga and California needs to talk to the D.A. Someone needs to be indicted before the MSM will cover it.

Yep Rocky, the presstitutes in the MSM have orders not to deal with the issue.

Even tho a non-partisan GAO report shows that there is great merit to the issue.

stories up....

Diebold insider alleges company plagued by technical woes, Diebold defends 'sterling' record

Petgoat - thanks for what you provided. Anyone else (see my #4)???

tried to answer you daveK, but the software isn't liking me at this time.... maybe too many links in the comment.

DaveK, do a google search with the words "greg palast 2000 florida election" and throw in military votes

The march towards destruction continues... Out in Ohio, as reported by Fitrakis and Wasserman, (single digit approval rating, but who cares?) Governor Taft is about to sign a bill which will be the death knell for elections and our democracy.

FOLKS, IT'S TIME FOR ACTION.

Everyone, right now: print out a copy of the Dieb-Throat article and MAIL it to your local newspaper editor --- or better yet, Michael Isikoff Jonathan Alter at Newsweek, Seymour Hersh at the New Yorker, etc. DEMAND THEY DO THEIR JOBS AND EXPOSE THE ELECTION FRAUD MACHINE!

And sign THEN... this petition!

http://www.petitiononline.com/boxer123

Urging Senator Boxer to take the lead on the election fraud issue. Boxer was the only Senator to stand up against the seating of the elerctors in the stolen election of 2004.

This year we've seen more neocon lies and schemes exposed than most people could have ever thought possible. And yet they have not REALLY lost one lick of power--and in fact, thanks to the "Help America Vote Act" they are rapidly rolling out Karl Rove's wet dream: the Permanent Republican Majority.

And our so-called opposition party STILL refuses to get it.

SOMEBODY --- either a Senator or an editor at a mainstream media outlet --- MUST be brave.

Must be willing to say, "Enough."

Must be willing to expose the truth to America...

NOW.

Newsweek's Jonathan Alter, while asserting to me that he thought "the Dems had simply been outworked on the ground in Ohio" back in May, has become more aggressive in his articles since then. He might be swayed.

Six or Seven squad... FALL IN!!!!

http://www.petitiononline.com/boxer123

This is great news!!!

The neocons are definitely desperate so desperate they are accelerating any and all election fraud plans!

Tom Delay's heading to trial and Dieb-throught is spilling his guts.

What needs to happen is Dieb-throught & friends need to get that proof out right away, of the machines being patched and send it into the Prosecution's office.

Prosecutors in California (Georgia?) need to get right on this while the water is hot....and shut down this damn scam!!!! NO MORE DIEBOLD= NO MORE PRIVATIZED ELECTIONS!!!!!!!!!!

Doug E :laugh:

Check this out from Tallahassee,Florida. Ion Sancho, supervisor of Elections in Leon County, (and absolutely stand-up guy known personally to me since the '80's) showed that the voting machines coud be hacked. And he got criticized for this!

http://www.clevescene.co...005-10-19/news/news.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cg...05/11/25/BAG13FTR9E1.DTL

I would focus on "Dieb-Throat" and whether he is really an insider. The reason is, nothing really new is coming out. We need to be careful that we aren't being used.

At Black Box Voting, we speak with many Diebold insiders, and we learn significantly new information every time. However, this interview and Brad's original interview recap old information that has been publicly available for some time.

Miriam Raftery did a good job of writing it up, and I'm sure she did speak with someone. How much that person really knows from the "inside" is open to question, and we need to be careful.

The most interesting new statement in this article is from David Bear, who Raftery reports says that narcotics trafficker John Elder was never employed by Diebold. Black Box Voting has documents that prove John Elder ran the Everett branch of Diebold Election Systems until mid-2004. He recieved hush money payments from Diebold for at least six months following his termination.

I emphasize that every time we speak with an insider for the vendors, we learn something new.

For example, in an interview Kathleen had today with an insider, we learned that several of Triad's customers (election officials) were cousins of the Rapps (the owners of Triad). We have not been able to confirm this information yet, since we just got it. But this is an example of how you always get something new, something that's not been written up publicly.

I am convinced that Dieb-Throat carefully read my book, and carefully read Rob Behler's interview, and carefully read my article about GEMS and Jeffrey Dean's employment during the time the double set of books was put in. But I haven't seen information in Dieb-Throat's revelations that has not been public before. That is not at all typical for interviews with true insiders.

In fact, as Kathleen just mentioned, if we were to get the same information from an inside source that has already been published, we wouldn't write it up into a new article. Nor would we write it up as corroboration, unless we could name the person, because an unnamed source doesn't qualify as corroboration.

What we have here is an unnamed source providing old information. I'm glad to see the information being written about, because the more people who know, the better. It was skillfully written up. It just doesn't have a single thing in it that indicates the source has actually had inside access.

Be careful.

Bev Harris

I personally trust the source is legitimate...because although some of it is not new, this coverage was never that widespread before or in the corporate media either when "Black Box Voting" was writing about it....

Not that nobody trusts Black Box Voting, but it doesn't seem they took any of its stories all that seriously after a certain point. Alot of this stuff may be rehashed but I guess now, the important thing is....they may have the proof that Elder's boys patched the machine. If they get those documents released soon there will be enough proof in each of the courts to shut Diebold down.

I think that's all anyone really wants...Just to shut Diebold down for good since it should not be in elections and is an illegal acting company representing its own seperate agenda...

And Sequoia of course...but Sequoia doesn't have the history that the Diebold boys do that's for sure...

Doug E.

Bev Harris,

Seems like sour grapes to me. You act like there is no one else in the business who has anything that you have not already had for years. Personally, I am really tired of hearing from you and all your warnings to be careful. In short, shut up.

I signed your pettition #16. It's crucial that we do everything to expose Diebold, America's democracy is at stake!

Bev Harris #19,

Thanks for the heads-up. I hope Miriam Raftery has the opportunity to do a follow-up article with new information.

Question: even if this individual is not as deep an insider as they claim, what is the danger, as long as the information is accurate? Is it that someone could be grooming someone to believe they are a good source, in order to plant some future disinformation and smear the good name of whoever reports it? If the reporter is conscientious and verifies any new information provided, would that keep everyone safe?

It would be helpful to understand more about what you perceive as the potential risks, and what suggestions you'd have for Raftery or any other journalists in this position. (For example, is there a particular vetting process you have when dealing with a new inside source?)

RLM #1
Keep those great ideas coming!

Electile dysfunction

Optical Scam Machine

We need more like this!

Ms Harris

I've been reading BBV and Bradblog for a long time.

You do important work. But you are not the only one.

Your attitude is condesending sp.

Doug:

I absolutely agree with you that this information needs to get out in the media.

Clearly, it was taken seriously. Most of the material in this article was published in Vanity Fair magazine on April 10, 2004. Some of it also appeared on Nightline, and more was published by the New York Times. I'd have to call those media outlets "corporate media," so it's not accurate to say this hasn't been covered.

It is not normal for corporate media to repeat stories. However, this issue clearly has "legs" because --- even though we couldn't possibly be in a more "off season" for elections right now --- the Associated Press ran three e-voting stories in the last three weeks, and Reuters wire service ran one. It's just that they are breaking new ground each time.

To Slamdunk: Honest discussion should be welcomed in our movement. It's the bad guys who want us to tell each other to shut up, right?

Back to Doug:

>>>they may have the proof that Elder's boys patched the machine.

John Elder is a ballot printer, not a programmer. He was not involved in the patches. He's based in Everett, Washington. The patches were created in Vancouver, Canada and McKinney, Texas.

The patches were authored primarily by Talbot Iredale and Ian Piper, as evidenced by their discussion of the patches they had written, contained in the Diebold memos. The patches themselves were on the Diebold FTP site.

I've made the patches themselves publicly available. You can download the clockfix, the rob-georgia, and the June 28 Georgia patch at BBV. I'm not sure what will be gained by releasing patches that have been on the Internet for two years, but if you find something in them, by all means let us all know immediately.

Again, I agree that news coverage is important, but nothing in this article indicates the source actually has inside information.

All I'm saying is that the assertion that it is an insider should be treated with care, until the person releases information that is not in the public domain already.

to Catherine A:

If the source is an insider, he'll have new information. He won't just recap what's been in the mainstream press.

You asked what the risk is: When working with inside sources, especially those you offer "protected source" status to, in journalism, you have to do certain things to protect the authenticity of your story.

Inside sources can be used to spin disinformation, thereby discrediting the writer. That hasn't happened here, yet. But it is clear that the normal tests were not applied.

Usually, with an inside source, you obtain some information from them that is not in the public domain. Then you independently verify it. That tells you the source is actually a source, and is giving you the right info.

Since there's no information provided that wasn't in the mainstream media or on the Web, that means either:
- The inside source doesn't really have inside status
or
- The inside source is prepping you for a trap
or
- The inside source is damn slow about providing you with any real information.

Now, the argument seems to be that all journalistic tests should be suspended on Dieb-throat because it's important to get the information out (even though it's already out). The argument seems to be that it should get out again.

As I've said, I agree with that, but it's crazy to get all excited about this until Dieb-Throat parts with something fresh. I hope he/she is legit and I hope he/she does build up the confidence to provide accurate new information.

In the mean time, there's nothing wrong with pitching this story to get it out there again, except if Dieb-Throat somehow gets discredited.

And my suggestion to Miriam is this: I have the complete list of every Diebold employee and ex-employee going back years. I also have lists of most of the contractors. If this person is for real, that's findable while still protecting the source.

And if this person is for real, this person should be asked to part with some tidbit not yet in the public domain.

There are many ways to cross-check the veracity of the non-public information, of which, so far, there is none.

For example, one source told me of the high salaries being paid, and gave me an amount of how much certain key employees were being overpaid. We had some payroll records. We checked them. The payments given by the source checked out with payroll records obtained from a different source. Therefore, we knew both that employees were overpaid and that the source was giving out good nonpublic information. Therefore, we returned to the source for more.

If a source tells you only what has been printed in the mainstream media, that's a red flag. It's just not how sources normally communicate.

Sorry if it sounds condescending to someone. Look, we know sources. We've walked into double-wide trailers on tarpaper sidewalks and sat there for hours with a fat man and a parrot imitating a telephone, to hear a source confirm that there is wireless in the machines while a dog licked our legs. We've met sources in the dark in the wet grass while they slip us black plastic bags with disks and documents. I've spoken to John Elder on the phone. He speaks 90 miles a minute and repeats himself and has a lot of opinions, but even he parted with new information, slipping us the name of the guy in the Fresno ballot plant and telling us he was behind schedule.

The most interesting recent document we had leaked was --- believe it or not --- the master security access code for the building where the Vancouver Canada programmers work, along with instructions on how to reset the code and add new access codes. Sources often give you stuff you can't use --- if we use that, we'd be committing a felony, and if we publish it, we'd be irresponsible to the other businesses that operate in Airport Square in Vancouver. We were also slipped some accounting spreadsheets that are damning, but they aren't evidence. After all, anyone can make an Excel spreadsheet, and without identifiers it's unusable.

Nothing about this source provides that overwhelming feeling of authenticity. So shoot me.

Look, at a minimum the indications are that this person either hasn't been with Diebold very long or, it's possible they have but not with GLOBAL.

To recap: Diebold in Canton OH makes "bank gear" - ATMs, bank vault security, safes, alarms, etc. They've been at it a very long time, I've personally seen a Diebold safe dating to the 1850s.

Diebold bought Global Election Systems Inc. in 2002 (offices in Vancouver BC and McKinney TX), renamed it Diebold Election Systems Inc. ("DESI" still in Vancouver and Texas) which to this day is acting very independent of the corporate parent. We have tips that management in Canton is regularly fighting to get DESI to "play right" with the rest of the company in such basic matters as HR policy.

In reading Miriam's article, it struck me that they knew nothing about the weirdness that went on at Global...the bizarre stock games in Canada alone would fill a book!

If this really is an insider, and Bev's doubts are not to be taken lightly, it's somebody whose background wasn't DESI/Global before the 2002 buyout and they may not be (and possibly never were) connected to DESI at all. OR they transferred to DESI from Canton or another original Diebold corporate office fairly late in the game.

To us at BBV, that would make their "insider" status...well, not really "inside enough" to help that much if you catch my drift.

I'll say this: having been active in this field since mid-2003, there's nothing "Dieb-throat" has said so far that we haven't known since early '04 at the latest.

If Dieb-Throad has connections to Canton or other management offices outside of DESI/Global, the big remaining question from that point of view is: what collosal failure of "due dilligence" led to their buying up Global without knowing about all the crooks involved?

Jim

Bev- It provides important legal precedent if they can prove now that the machine was patched with something that altered the election.....

And since he has the details on it, they might have the actual audit logs or anything else. Since it would be from an employee they have access to this information and could easily get it out there if it is confirmed real.

And that means the Diebold company would have more than injunctions to worry about, each employee involved in applying those illegal patches to the database could do prison time. Not just that programmer you talk about, everyone on the whole team who was there and directly involved.

Now you see this issue needs to be addressed again much more fully, its legs is what got it here.

Doug E

Look, if it isn't clear yet: if the guy/gal is "Diebold but not DESI" like I suspect, that's OK. Still gutsy to come forward.

But now it's time to really bring us something new, OK?

Jim March
Staffer, Black Box Voting Inc

Look, if it isn't clear yet: if the guy/gal is "Diebold but not DESI" like I suspect, that's OK. Still gutsy to come forward.

But now it's time to really bring us something new, OK?

Jim March
Staffer, Black Box Voting Inc

Catherine,

I hear you with the whole issue but its still scripted inferences. Obviously Black Box has been on this issue since day one, but there is nothing concrete out that has really grabbed the corporate media's attention.

You have shown examples of the patches, the kind of people working there, etc. And that's all good & fine.

But whoever this is claims to know who rigged the georgia voting database, and have inside information also that will prove they applied illegal patches. And not only this, did it behind his own boss's back. And if this is all completely checked out, then that will prove these employees rigged the Georgia & the other vote single-handedly.

That's alot more important than some patches or random history....that would be audited logs & employee records which show they rigged it in advance and on the same day.

Those stand up in court...and if he is as serious as he sounds, he'll have access and be able to hand them over directly.

Doug E

Thank you Bev Harris and Black Box Voting for your hard work and dedication to exposing the BUSHIT ELECTIONS. I personally appreciate the tenacious defense you offered to explain the intellectual process of discerning a "real" insider from someone who doles out information thats already out there and or that you have provided on your site. Without calling anyone out, people here are pretty pissed off and sometimes the anger is misdirected.
Today i had the idea to start a political party called THE WORKING CLASS PARTY. If you're sick of our 2 parties system consisting of mainly crooks and liers only interested in promoting the interests of the corporate elite, then vote for THE WORKING CLASS PARTY.
1. We will put people in political office that will do something for working Americans.
2. Immediately work to access what we can do to improve the environment, such as saving the remaining US wild lands at home and reducing global warming.
3. Eliminate or cap corporate contribution to a political office holding candidate to $10,000. So oil companies can't control our government.
4. Work to look for alternate sources of energy.
5. Immediately fix the voting system, rid any machines that cannot provide a verifiable paper trail.
6. Immediate withdrawal from the Iraq war in which the attack was clearly based on lies and the unrelated 9/11 attack.
7. Open an Independent investigation of 9/11. While most the evidence has been destroyed, there is still a lot of information that can be uncovered.
8. Open an Independent investigation of all Federal Spending.
9. Select a team of US prosecuters to investigate and procecute the BUSH administration and their accomplices for their criminal actions against the people of the United States.

Off Topic -

A moment of silence for our troll Redneck, who has announced that he has better things to do, and will no longer waste his time with this blog.

Unfortunate as we had been having a pretty good battle on the "AnnCoulter/Jesus' Golden Rule" and "Judith Miller" threads.

There are a bunch of things that happened in Georgia in 2002 that need to be thoroughly investigated. First of all there is the application of the last-minute patches because the machines were "malfunctioning." I read that there were exit polls indicating the Max Cleland was ahead and then suddenly the votes switched and Chambliss went ahead. I also stumbled completely accidentally on a computer security company in Atlanta that makes military grade hard drive scrubbing software. This company is run by the professional photographer of the Bush family and the RNC. The company, Cyberscrub, has pictures of Newt Gingrich and John Snow up on its website. Why does this matter, you ask? Well, I remember reading that the malfunctioning machines in Georgia were scrubbed after the 2002 election so the results could never be checked.
So far this is all anecdotal evidence that I read over the last two to three years. But election results suddenly a flip-flop a lot in key states--have you noticed that? I personally think that they used mulitple strategies, some legal and many illegal, to ensure they got the electoral votes.

DaveK - Some useful info available in the short "Documents" box on the right. Specifically to the counts made by the consortium of ALL the votes in FL in 2000. Link to the PDF is here for your convenience.

Bev - I would not have originally reported on DIEB-THROAT at all without first checking thoroughally into the background and veracity of the source. I can't speak for Miriam, of course, but for me, I don't necessarily report publicly *everything* that I find immediately or sometimes at all publicly. It depends on the best use of any particular piece of information. For whatever that though might be worth, in any case.

You have my phone number and email address, of course, and are always free to touch base with me if you have any concerns about anything. Always good to see from both you and Jim!

Everytime george bush speaks God kills a Kitten.

Bev Harris has a point. Dieb Throat could be a Karl Rove creation, or a troll masquerading as a Diebold traitor.

If he or she is legit, that's great news. If he or she is working for the G.O.P. as a trap, that's also encouraging because it proves there's fire behind the Diebold smoke. Rove wouldn't create a phony Dieb Throat if there were nothing to hide.

Okay, just reviewed the story very carefully.

Dieb-Throat's comments reveal numerous factual errors. He's got factual inaccuracies in his comments about the Georgia patches, the California problems, the San Diego problems.

This is either a tangentially involved person (i.e. a temporary contractor who is supplementing his personal knowledge with what he read in the news and on the Internet) or this is a phony.

If this is a true insider he is providing misinformation.

I will speak to Miriam today.

I would heed Bev and Jim's warnings. What we must remember is that rigged or riggable voting machines are a secret weapon controlled by powerful players.

Decoy, phony, detour, and trap tactics will most certainly be used. And this blog as well as BBV most certainly will be targets.

Brad, Miriam, Bev, and Jim should get together and collaborate to form test procedures. Perhaps a trusted ex-cia or ex-fbi person could assist to draft the procedures. THEN KEEP THE PROCEDURES SECRET and known only by a few. Don't publish all of them, especially the core. If you are going to publish, do so with an incomplete or similar and reasonable looking set.

I expect these kinds of approaches, and I expect that there will be attempts to plant agents inside Brad Blog and BBV for info gathering. This will be used to destroy both and bring them down.

That is just normal procedure. Meanwhile the trolls will be burping, farting, puking, and the other things trolls do. But the former is more of a threat than the posting trolls are.

Dredd --

Thank you. Your comments are dead-on. I started to post a story on BBV to show what tipped us off that something isn't quite right with this story, but decided to hold it closer to the vest until I talk with Miriam. She is an excellent and gutsy reporter, by the way, and I like her very much.

I'll also meet with Jim and Kathleen as soon as they get in. We have procedures here to help us size up credibility of sources. Sometimes they are real, but puffing up their knowledge a bit. But some are apparently political operatives, sent to de-rail momentum.

Folks, you do realize that the current manipulation of the US electoral system is the biggest story since 1776? We should not think that there will be no countermeasures. Nowadays, the countermoves are (usually) subtle and skillfully executed. And they come with plausible deniability built in.

Bev

Thank you Bev, and thanks for saying this:

"Folks, you do realize that the current manipulation of the US electoral system is the biggest story since 1776?"

Exactly. Yes. Jesus God, yes. Good to see that written down in black & white. Ok well, yellow & green.

Diebold Victory

The "victory" the president and his admin now pray we will accept is tired.

They defined "victory" originally to be seizing WMD in Iraq. That war could not be won because it was a fantasy war.

Next "victory" was defined as being welcomed as liberators by the Iraqi people. The Iraqi's did not, however, like shock and awe and random killings of their women and children, less water than before, less electricity than before, less security than before, a hyper increase of terrorists and terrorism, nor did they welcome US as liberators, and so that "victory" is also an illusion.

Next "victory" was bringing "freedom" to Iraq via elections. Like Vietnam elections where "83% of the vietnamese registered voters voted" in September of 1967 even tho the viet cong were terrorizing the populace, vietnam fell not too long thereafter. Having an election is not the hallmark of freedom in case neoCons have not noticed.

The word "victory" is another empty, meaningless, and useless term which is touted as the pinnacle of admin policies and the talking points of shills.

The word "victory" is the new lie word.

Great thread, great comments by all. I agree most of all with the statement that this is the biggest story since 1776. It seems to me that any American who has ever dealt with a computer understands the notion that computers could streamline elections, but unless handled very carefully, could also be the most effective way ever devised to streamline election fraud, just as easily or more easily.

Isn't that true? That makes it utterly damning, without any other evidence AT ALL, that the voting machines have been designed without commonsense protections, such as printed receipts, not partisan and non private election handlers, memories that cannot and are not scrubbed and so on (sorry, I'm not a technophile, so I'm sure my conceptual approach is simplistic, but the basic issues are - it seems to me - as conceptually simple as they are technologically complex).

I think it is wise to realize that traps will be set, ala ABC, but not the same, by those who wish to discredit criticism of electronic voting.

Look at the way Fitzgerald seems to work. He seems to build his cases carefully but tenaciously.

Grizzly Bear Dancer, I am more and more convinced that we need a third party and I am more and more hopeful that there are plenty of people out there on both sides who feel that way. Let the two main parties coalesce into one. They clearly, in my opinion, function as one already. The Iraq war has shown this, as has the Stolen Election issue, I think.

The question in my mind is whether folks on the right and the left can overcome their differences.
I feel that the differences are more apparent than real. But how can this be articulated in such a way that the libertarian and the green party person can see eye to eye, or closer to eye to eye? Is there any way that the Christian and the Pagan, for example, can realize that they are closer to being on the same team than either is to the Corporatist?

This threads illustrates why I check out Brad Blog every day. I especially like the working stiff's party idea, and would like to make a couple of observations. I think that every elected official should have actually worked at some point. In fact I find the concept of the career politician utter anathema to a democracy. I think all citizens should at some point serve their community to the best of their abilities, and then be allowed to return to their own lives. Now, a career public servant like Fitzie is quite another story, but, seemingly, quite the oddity in our current environment.
OK, that's that for my pontificating. Thank you, Bev and BBV and Brad and all the 6 or 7 for caring about the huge iceberg in the path of the USS Unconscious. Let's get 'em, but let's get 'em good!

Love and Peace from smoggy Prague, Bob

Hi RLM - A while ago I'd morphed optical-scan to official-scam - glad to see others are on the same stinking trail of spoor

Official-works, too

re: COMMENT #45 [link]
...epppie said on 12/7/2005 @ 8:19am PT...

Two parties are logically unnecessary. Senators and representatives can represent, and be elected by, their constituents without these senators and representatives being led around by their "leaders."

Under the current setup, only two senators and two representatives are necessary since the rest of these "leaders" only do what they are told to do and, in the process, waste lots of taxpayer money on salaries, pensions, staffs, etc.

Man, I wish this blog had an edit function - "official-sham" works, too

Lexie, you're absolutely correct about GA. It was the "proving ground" for the grand theft of 2004.

And, Anonymous #2, who the hell are you???

Bev Harris #42

I would remind everyone of the Mike Ruppert (From the Wilderness) event of not so long ago.

He was infiltrated and they did serious damage to him. His people (subscribers) bailed him out, yet it was close.

And he is a trained officer. He was trained in informant, police, DEA, and other tactics ... yet ... they got to him.

So heads up and beware.

These neoCons and neoConvicts will become more and more dangerous if they perceive that it is we who are turning the heads of the American people. Making them aware.

You know, I just have to comment on:

>>Everytime george bush speaks God kills a Kitten.

We're used to seeing "miscellaneous lefty partisan comments" scattered throughout any discussion of Diebold, voting reform, etc.

Is that really a good idea?

OK, y'all know by now (or most of you do) that I'm a Republican. Not a far-right Ashcroft type, but a more Libertarian-leaning sort (known as the "Republican Liberty Caucus").

Still, I'm no "lefty". I'm politically active in another field entirely that most people in the voting rights movement have a hard time wrapping their brains around.

Despite that I think I've made a contribution to this process and I think I can continue. My boss Bev seems to agree .

I'm not the only one. John Washburn in Wisconsin has been a powerhouse, he's somebody I met on a discussion board devoted to guns .

Still, he and I are "odd ones out" so far...but we're NOT the only honest non-lefty types in America!

Those politically active in Democrat/Green/Socialist politics need to ask themselves this:

"Is it more important to keep the voting rights movement "lefty" as a draw item to get people into lefty activism, or is there a major pool of energy we're throwing away by mixing voting reform with lefty politics?"

If you BELIEVE this is the most important political issue since 1776 (which I firmly agree with Bev is the case) then the answer should be "election reform has to be non-partisan" the way Black Box Voting genuinely is.

This tent has to be big enough for Bush voters. Like me.

Jim March

Comment #45: To give a quick piece of history, the corporate few actually first got the power of this country when it was divided.. back during the Civil War. So these fckers have had decades to make the American voter think he's driving the bus. Lincoln wrote about it back then. He knew the reality of a democratic gvernment would become an illusion. Come circa 2005: We got the most corrupt fascist government running the show and some of us have figured out that we have a "one party system." Calling our political party THE WORKING CLASS PARTY has many benefits and someone with a little marketing aptitude could really make it happen. Ya see whether or not you believe in a higher power/s should not stop this party from attracting all walks of life who simply want the truth and want the US to become a strong world leader because of good reasons. Unless you got someone paying your way, you work or have worked and pay taxes. Understand that it would take some hard work from many individuals to actualize the dream of making a great party to gain political office and promotes environmental preservation. We must address the real issues such as human population growth and the truth of what's going on in the world. We must start using technological advancement to understand what the hell is happening to our earth. Don't spend billions on space travel. Work to make our HOME a BEAUTIFUL PLACE. The Arctic is melting!!! This isn't some 2 star Hollywood movie. We need to listen to dedicated environmental scientists not an infomercial from oil companies telling us to buy a bigger truck. Get the word out that real Americans are taking back their country to become the well respected champion based on our work ethics and values. We will be facing people who lie cheat and steal to get their way however, once some good people step forward it will keep gaining momentum. Lastly, I maintain you don't need big corporate bucks to talk. Word of mouth, the internet, and any place where people congregate are all good. Believe in yourself and it will happen.

Jim #53

Don't be too troubled by the troll at post #37. He or she posts that same rot ad nauseum in every thread on this blog.

Not many here will react cause we generally avoid trolls.

This troll has a concept of a god who goes around killing cats when George Bush speaks. That is the stuff of extreme whack jobs. Pay it no mind.

This blog is a more generic blog than BBV, and so there are many topics and therefore many posts from all facets of life.

Most here will agree that election system integrity is not a partisan issue, and even tho most here are anti-Bush, we are united in working with anyone toward that end.

Most of us have no problem with honesty and honest folk ... which is what fair, open, and honest elections are all about.

I realize that, Dredd, but this tendency towards mixing "progressive politics" and the election reform issue isn't just about that troll or even this thread.

It's a running thing...it's...OK, a recent example was the recent package of Ohio initiatives. Yeah, some were right on target, others...not so much. So people saw "the whole package" as a plainly "lefty" thing. *I* wouldn't have voted for all of the bills but at least I'd have realized that some of the reforms were legitimately needed.

Jim - we tolerate your Republican stance just as you must tolerate our anti-neocon stance --- if we want to band together under an umbrella.

Brad doesn't want a strict moderation of comments here, so we get all sorts and just because someone makes a comment here doesn't mean they are "leftists" (as you put it.) We know they sometimes are from the extreme "rightie" camp, posting comments that are way out of line and pretending to be one of us. Some of them are quite nasty.

Don't know who the poster "Judge of Judges" is, but s/he's been smacked down for making some intolerable comments here before.

I personally don't like the "lefty" label. As far as I can tell, the Republican movement of the early '80s started the labeling thing and it has done nothing but create a deep (and growing deeper) division and animosity over the years.

As far as voting on packages --- those of us who don't agree with the neocon agenda find that voting rights/reform packages supplied by that side always house other bills we find distasteful. We (I speak for the 6 or 7 of us here) have sucked it up and cast our votes with packages created & supported by moderate Republicans even though we don't agree with everything contained within.

What shall we do? Since I may not understand you, would you please clarify by stating what you see as "the way" to deal with the issue?

~~I reference your comment in #53 ~~ "Is it more important to keep the voting rights movement "lefty" as a draw item to get people into lefty activism, or is there a major pool of energy we're throwing away by mixing voting reform with lefty politics?"

Thanks.

Hi Kira,

I'm not speaking for Jim here. But in answer to your question, I'd suggest avoiding name-calling being mixed in with discussion of voting or election reform. That will help create awareness that this is--and must be--a non-partisan issue.

First, I'm not trying to use "lefty" as an insult. It's more like, I don't know how else to "lump together" the various progressive/Dem/Green/socialist political movements.

OK, let me be (politely) blunt here: deliberately doing election reform activity intermixed with "lefty" politics is a bad idea. That's what the Ohio group tried. It's even worse to...

OK, an example: I once went to an "election reform meeting" in Sacramento at a local union hall...SEICU I think it's called, it's a very politically active union of mostly public sector employees. They're constantly chasing Ahnuld all over the state with ugly banners, etc. So I go in, sign in and when I did, there's a checkbox right next to each signature/name/EMail line saying something like "YES, notify me of any other progressive political activity in my neigborhood!"

In other words, they were using the election reform issue as a "draw" to get politically active people in the door and playing their game.

And I see that sort of thing ALL the time.

The California Election Protection Network wanted to describe themselves as a "progressive movement" in their charter until I spoke up and to their credit re-thunked that one.

It's pervasive across the movement. Heck, look at the general tone of this whole website, Bradblog. It's an election reform nexus. Look at Democratic Underground, which tries to be one too except they threw me off the MINUTE I mentioned I was a Libertarian-leaning Republican. That was back when they really mattered as an election reform nexus.

(In case anybody is wondering: the forums at blackboxvoting.org are wonderful except they've have to recover from being hacked/stolen into oblivion twice and shut down by a fraudulent Diebold cease'n'desist at least once. But it looks like we're finally past all that and growing.)

All I'm saying is, think about whether keeping this movement progressive/socialistic/lefty/Dem/Green/whatever is a good idea or not, OK?

Jim

Ok - what's name-calling?

Sorry --- I'm at such a loss these days with all the name-calling coming from the "right" (as I said since the early '80s) that I just don't know what it really means anymore.

Please explain for me!

Thanks,
Kira

PS --- I think it's obvious I'm a bit disgruntled about the current political scene, Catherine A., (and I think with plenty of good reason!) And I'm tired of playing the role of the abused child (or spouse) who is told to shut up and not tell anybody about the abuse and pretend all is hunky-dory at home.

However, I wonder if you could point out something specific that you see (with a link, please) so I can get a handle on exactly what you're talking about.

Also - I hope you & Jim don't think I'm attacking you, because that's not what I meant. If I've expressed myself poorly, I apologize.

Thanks,
Kira

See, I'm not saying you can't bash Bush or flame "Neocons" or whatever . Not hardly.

I'm saying that if we want election reform to happen, it would be far better tactics not to MIX those activities (or other "left of center items of fun") with election reform.

Because if you do, then the election reform movement stays purely a "lefty thing" with the exception of a tiny handful like me .

Does this make sense?

In other words...wear a "Bush kills kitties while lying" T-Shirt all you want, *except* at an election reform event. I'm not saying it's not your right to do so, but it's just bad tactics.

Really bad.

Real world example: at the rally outside the California SecState's office hearing on 11/21/05, some guy had a "Meet The Fokkers" shirt on, 'cept it was Bush and Cheney and it said something slightly different from "Fokkers" if you know what I mean. :confused: We had a heckler come through, clearly a Bush voter who used T-shirts like that, the "Arnold impersonator" and other assorted lefty hyperbole to claim "this thing ain't about election reform, you guys are just pissed Kerry lost!"

Well that wasn't why *I* was there, I hate Kerry's guts. And I talked to him, got him calmed down a little bit, at least enough to let the speakers go on.

But he was egged on by the people with event-inappropriate signage/T-shirts/etc.

A lot of OTHER Bush-type voters wouldn't have heckled, but they WOULD just walk on by shaking their heads at the antics of the "stupid lefties".

Do y'all get the picture here?

If you say "we have to have visibly fair elections and we don't now", you can put that message across to newbies to the issue of ALL political stripes.

If you say "Bush is a lying neocon cheater who steals elections", you might gain converts on the left but you've totally shut out everybody else.

Gee, let's think, which plan WINS US THIS ISSUE!?

You might believe in your own mind that Bush is a lying neocon cheater who steals elections. Hell, it's barely possible you're right, although I'm not convinced the rot spreads quite that far (not impossible, mind you).

But can y'all possibly find it in your hearts not to loudly say so (or the equivelent) at the next election reform rally?

Please?

Jim

It is truly amazing how Ms. Harris will cut down anything that somehow from her team did not bring to light. Oh yes, voting rights activist she is, as long as she is the only one. That is why she will not link to these stories and she cuts comments from her blog that in any way question her or her methods.

I have personally spoken with enough people to know two things: Ms. Harris started off with the best of intentions and did amazing work, but along the way, she lost visibility of what the objective is and continues to undercut the voting rights movement at every turn. At this point, Ms. Harris needs to step away and let the work be done.

Finally, Ms. Harris is criticizing Ms. Raftery? Am I reading this correctly?

So far, I see nothing in Ms. Raftery's work that would cause alarm or give Ms. Harris the right to lecture down to someone who is a very credible journalist.

Do you have some personal issue with Ms. Raftery? You did not post this story at your blog, but you have posted these same comments all over the web, where this story has appeared. What is so important that you think would require such a reaction? Did you email Ms. Raftery? Did you email the editor of the publication with your concerns? I will forward this post and your other posts I have seen on this story to the publication and the writer. Perhaps they have a right to respond to your public displays of what you call advocacy.

What would Ms. Harris know about anonymous sources other than her own digging in garbage cans?

Like I said, the Ms. Harris may have started off with good intentions but at this point she is nothing more than a attention deficit victim and must no longer be involved in any aspect of this movement if it is to move forward with credibility.

It is largely thanks to Velvet Revolution and all of the voting groups that has made the MSM take notice. Bev Harris did not want to share her goodies with the MSM when she had the chance and the public suffered as a result.

Go back to your hole Bev or back to the Free Republic where you regularly post and undercut everyone in the voting rights movement. You are not welcome here, of that I am most certain. Andy was very much part of the Velvet Revolution and BradBlog.

You remember Andy don't you? You remember how you helped create the rumor that he was faking his illness? You remember that he actually died?

Your role in making possible additional suffering for a cancer patient is well noted.

Quoting:

>>Finally, Ms. Harris is criticizing Ms. Raftery? Am I reading this correctly?

No, you're not!

The issue here is NOT with Miriam, or Brad or the people at Rawstory or anybody else.

We do have some issues with whoever "Dieb Throat" is, to wit:

1) With one minor exception, *everything* he/she has said is stuff that's already known. The exception is the "blank paper during the Chicago demo" thing, and that's not really Earth-shattering as Diebold printers failing to print have been spotted often enough.

2) Dieb Throat is giving out a LOT of "editorializing" fluff with a minimum of hard fact underneath it.

3) And the biggest: NO PROOF. Not a damned thing we can use in court.

Look, if you want to know how insider testimony can do actual, serious damage to Diebold, take a look at the declaration of James Dunn:

http://www.bbvdocs.org/legal/dunndeclaration.pdf

Now go ahead: compare what Dunn said with what "Dieb Throat" says. Skip the fact that DT is anonymous, look at the detailed hard facts including names, dates and places in Dunn's testimony.

That's what insider data looks like, whether it's formal like this or not. And that's why we react with some skepticism to "Dieb Throat" - this looks like 90% or more is the product of somebody paying attention to news reports and recycling them to look like they're "from the inside".

-----------------

Now as to Bev saying anything about Andy's illness, you're a liar. She said nothing of the kind. Various people tried their damnest to goad Bev into saying something along those lines and when she wouldn't, they simply claimed she did. The internet has a long memory: post *any* comment negative to Andy connected with his illness.

The truth is, yes, for a very brief period on BBV we posted a message about why we fired him. Had nothing to do with illness - I was a member of the BBV Board of Directors at the time and I know full well why we fired him. We had no idea he was ill...not only did he not say anything, he didn't show any symptoms that we could see. We took down that message within 24 hours but Andy kept a copy and frequently re-posted it on DU.

Bev does NOT tear down anything not coming from BBV. Not hardly, in fact the most recent story on BBV this moment is a set of supporting facts for the stockholder's suit:

http://www.bbvforums.org...gi?file=/1954/15571.html

Kira re: 60,61

I sure don't think anyone should shut up about the rotten things going on.

I just have no patience with terms like "Repugs" or DemocRATS etc. I don't even like Jim referring to "lefties" because while not exactly name-calling it's condescending and it's not a neutral term. It creates an emotional haze that detracts from discussion of the issues. It shuts down listening.

Passion is excellent and necessary. That doesn't have to mean name-calling, especially not based on party membership.

As Jim pointed out, election reform will only succeed with support from the grass roots of the full political spectrum. It's more effective to communicate about this particular issue while avoiding unnecessary epithets. Otherwise we can't communicate effectively with potential allies from all kinds of political backgrounds, be they conservative, liberal, libertarian, apolitical, etc.

It is quite true, as Jim and Catherine say, that bi-partisan efforts are the most genuine, especially in the vote integrity movement.

No "side" owns the country or its values. We own them collectively, and any damage to the integrity of the country by damage to the integrity of the election process is damage to all of us.