The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Oh! Excellent, Brad! Thank you! Just the thing!!! We should all print it and pass it around.
Thanks for posting it here Brad.
It was on the editorial page of the Sacramento Bee this morning and I was thinking of scanning it and posting it here.
It’s been quite a few years since I read it, and even though I’ve seen a few qoutes from it pertinant to our times, I was amazed at how much of it applies to our current situation!
Everyone should read every word and context it to today. You will be stunned!
Thanks again Brad!
(Also every letter to the editor was decrying our current situation and government!)
What a bunch of rabble rousers
and political insurgents.
What Country is this rogue group from ?
Haven’t they gone a little overboard in their
expectations and requests.
God save the King,… and protect the Crown.
—————–
America – May the elite/rich get richer,..
and the middle/poor classes grovel for the crumbs.
All under the guise of international competitiveness.
How have we lost our way,.. and become so disgustingly
unjust ? The worship of greed is becoming more and
more deplorable.
A cause to celebrate at this time ? ,…. hardly.
Happy Fourth,… only to thoses ,..trying to clean up this mess.
Norman Goldman (legal consultant) guest hosting for Ed Shultz today has just addressed Election fraud. (good job)
Saying that larger margins are “a” way to go. . . . . But NOT Good Enough. . .
Yes, it doesn’t seem to me they’re going to be shy about increasing the margins of theft by now, either.
I’m confused. Did you leave a part of this out Brad? Where is the part about the Christian nation we were establishing?
This says it all:
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
Those guys would have been proud of the progressive blogosphere. Happy 4th!
OT
This guy wants to introduce legislation to end internet neutrality. You must listen!
OMG!
Bluebear2
Somebody ought to write a book called What’s Wrong With Alaska? Maybe we shoulda let Stevens have his bridges to nowhere. Poor guy sounds like his brain is in a washing machine. Sounds sensible here and there, but punctuated, agitated, with gross misconceptions. Yipes!
Scary huh?
Turd Stevens is from California originally
George – (C) # 7
Yes,.. I read and reread that paragraph 10 X.
Floridiot
Damn! I coulda gone a long time without learning that bit of information. Would that we’d have shot him to Uruguay or somewhere as deserving of his talents. Alaska, clearly, was too close.
California grows some real radical conservaturds for some reason, I don’t know but could he have been a Marxist at one time like that goofy Horowitz creep ?
Rhandi Rhodes with guest Mark Crspin Miller on AAR radio Erection Fraud Oops that was last week, Election Fraud…
It’s to bad Viagra can’t help Election Fraud. . .
Nice, Brad. Very nice. Yeah, me and Tommy J. are on a first name basis. Take any one of these complaints, and they don’t seem to add up to enough to justify revolution. Take them all together and… Did you or your readers know that the original Declaration (which is at the American Philosophical Society in Philadephia) listed as MOST important of the complaints the heinous (I think that was the word) institution of slavery foisted upon us by King George? It had to be deleted to appease the Southern Colonies to get them to join the Revolution. This country was founded on all the principles threatened by Dubya: truth, justice and tolerance. Happy Fourth of July.
Worse, Floridiot, California real estate is overwhelmingly attractive to everyone, but it is only the “conservaturds”, lately, who can afford to buy it. Luckily, we DO have some successes in changing their poison minds. They start to become too embarrassed to spout all that selfish crap around us. Doesn’t, obviously, always work, but it has so far stemmed the evil tide. We do have evil tide surfers as well. They most frequently ride those waves right into brick walls of bankruptcy, falling for the tricks set up to catch just such wannabe Kleptocrats. Part of me believes my home state will weather this storm, but part of me worries that the neocons have wrecked this too. 🙁
That’s when the military really WAS fighting for our freedom. Those bunch of liberal, progressive rabble-rousers!!!
I walked away from my So Cal house with 290000 in my pocket, owned it for three years
…JUST LIKE US!!!!!!
Been meaning to say thanks for all you do. There are a lot of us regular folks out here that truly appreciate all your hard work.
I’m sure that house is empty by now, the new payment was over three grand a month
Another big shaker out there will bring those house prices back down quite a bit
I always told my buddy you’ll be able to hear the change falling out the windows to the ground as they shake
Then they will be more affordable for the regular folks once again!!!
Floridiot
You are no idiot! And, many, many buyers fell for the low interest rates thing, thinking they were going to be able to parlay their “little” investment into a $290K boon, too, but * yanked their livelihoods out from under them. They’re now waiting tables at Denny’s and living in the SUVs they’re still paying for. One accident, and they won’t be able to make the payments on those anymore either.
Halliburtonites and their ilk are mopping the floor with these people.
Quakes usually only depress the market for a couple years, don’t even make it fall, much, if any, and the prices would scare the pants off you now. Go for a little gander at Realtor dot com. Holy Bat Cave!!! Little, ugly, old, rotting, cracker boxes in Ft. Bragg, California are going for $350K. A house down the road from my old one, that 86 and I could have gotten for $525K if we’d have been willing to work 24/7/365 to pull it off, sold for $695K two months later. Houses in Berkeley end up selling for big percentage points HIGHER than the asking prices. Uninhabitable heaps in Crescent City on postage stamp lots are going for well over $100K. All places notorious for quakes, fires, tsunamis… dund madder. They WANT what we got.
They can HAVE Southern California. It’s paved over completely now. Had nightmares for weeks after my last visit. Dreamed they turned my redwood grove into a shopping mall.
It is our right, our duty, to throw off such debauchment from filthy capitalist swine!!!!!!!
ALSO:
while you’re reading the Delaration of Independence, a most courageous document when you think of all they were up against, having no idea how it would all turn out…
GO to the National Archives Exhibits page and take a gander at the extensive online museum of artifacts, texts, graphics, photos, analysis and historical context. Absorb some more history to ensure full enjoyment of the 4th!
i have been especially enjoying re-reading the Constitution. Be sure to take a look at Thomas Jefferson’s inaugural speech, in which he promised to seek out the wisdom and counsel of his fellow leaders — those in the Congress — to come up with solutions to the problems of the day and create a wise and just government in service of the people. (what a concept! i love this country!)
The National Archives: your tax dollars at work!
Regarding INTERNET NEUTRALITY and Senator Ted Stevens mentioned above: Be sure to go here – http://stevens.senate.gov/contact.cfm – to contact the idiot Senator. And be sure to tell him what INTERNET NEUTRALITY is, since he claims no one has defined it for him yet. Let him know that INTERNET NEUTRALITY means he, the Government, and people like him LEAVE IT ALONE! WE THE PEOPLE like it just the way it is!
yes, Ed #26 is correct! call the ol’ cranky bastard and let him know that NOT ONLY do we want them to keep their filthy paws off our internet, we want it CODIFIED INTO LAW that they must KEEP it that way, so that we don’t have to fight this fight every damn year, ad nauseam, like some sort of Freddie Kreuger bill that won’t die, or the flag burning amendment circus that comes to town every election year.
well, actually it will probably still come up each year, but if it’s in the law then it will be harder to change it outside of the courts. IT NEEDS TO BE PUT INTO LAW for our own protection.
For What It’s Worth
Good old tune 99, You were probably pregnant with the twins about that time ;p
Now, go out and rent the movie “1776” and see how the sausage was made.
Charlie L
Portland, OR
P.S. If you can get it in WIDESCREEN it’s worth the effort, as there are some scenes that use the entire CINEMASCOPE frame.
Floridiot: I was a budding mega-babe back then! Males were coming out of the woodwork to vex the daylights out of me. (My mom did absolutely NOTHING to prepare me for you guys.) 😛
RABBLE-ROUSERS,…
Who,.. Where,.. Us,… ?
“Freddie Kreuger bill”
I like that analogy DES!
99
My dad did little to prepare me for you girls either!
It consisted of: “Watch out for the girls, and you know what I mean!” as he dropped me off for college.
I had no frickin clue what he was talking about!
A good read for Mr. Corporatist,..
Senator Theodore Fulton Stevens – Alaska
Net-Neutrality :
Rockefeller,.. Railroads,..and Techno-Barons,.. Link
Pay to Play – British media article,.. how Internet providers can block access to free commerce going over their systems,.. Link
Play my way or get lost – Canadian Internet provider
blocks union website to prevent dissemination of their message,… Link
FASCISM,.. isn’t it exciting ?
Stay tuned for more. It is difficult to wait for what is coming,.. just down the road.
Video Link
HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA!!!!
Thanks for posting the declaration of Independence. It is truly a great document.
Regarding the cost of real estate in California, I made over $500,000 on my place when I sold it. I feel sorry for the guy who bought it. His payments must be huge. I don’t know what his politics are but his house is about one eighth the size of the one I live in now. I moved to a nice liberal state just north of my home state of California. Bigger house, nicer neighborhood, better job, better schools, liberal attitudes. Good move.
Old Turk
Yer not spozed to be watching spook movies on Independence Day! That stuff is for Halloween. 😉
A-99,.. check this one out.
Bunker buster nukes – Iran,.. bad idea bu$$h/cheney !
Almost wish his poll #’s would climb,.. so they don’t do something stupid/foolish.
Video Link
oldturk
I linked to that video weeks ago. It got right to the heart of *’s ideas for nuking Iran, but Sy Hersh has some good news for you. * has backed off his plans for nukes. Now it’s just “conventional” bombing he wants to deploy. He thinks this will make Iranians boot-out their leader. What will make us boot-out ours?
Big Dan #18
There was no military industrial complex then.
The Declaration of Independence declared our nation to exist without a shot being fired.
We fired up the mighty pen, not the sword. Like the progressive and liberty minded blogs of today.
We created independence merely by declaring it before the eyes of the world and in public.
War was the response of George and the despots. They hated our freedom, because they saw us as a possession.
Liberty is a function of the will of the people, and has nothing to do with lead exiting a barrel at high speed then ripping thru the life of another human being.
Liberty is not something that is created when another person’s blood drips back into the soil.
The Declaration of Independence was not a declaration of war.
War is dependent on hostile thoughts and emotions that are slaves to the source of those hostile thoughts and emotions.
Independence is “in” “dependent” which means no longer dependent.
******************************************
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“Net neutrality” IS in Reality “NET NEUTRALIZE” the opposition . . . . .
By Means of “NeT sHaKeDoWn” ! ! !
*******************************************
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” Net neutrality” IS more Fucking Lies by liars . . .
JOJ #42
You opened your mouth a bit wide on that one, and the whole screen widened along with it …
Speak softly but carry a big keyboard … 😉
#42 Dredd – please explain I don’t fully understand? Thanks
#43 Dredd – Ok
Hey everybody, I just watched old Smedley Butler and the tactics and the parallels to today are haunting, when his story started to hit in 1933&4 , the press was strangely silent, they attacked his sanity, they never had any of the big corporate honchos testify, the one responsible , Jerry Mcguire died of “natural causes” at 37, if you have the time, take a look
Link
Please read Bombs Bursting In Air by Cindy Sheehan
Please also consider her invitation:
Thanks, Cindy.
Lets put together a brad blog reunion at the peace house or camp casey … I am going sometime …
I figured we’d all meet at 29 Palms or gitmo for free someday
Why not both?
The pen is mightier than the sword, Dredd. But, are you saying the Revolutionary War, they weren’t actually fighting for freedom?
Jon Conyers is having a hearing June 16 at 2:30 pm in another too small room on the Downing Street Memo. At 5:00, he will hold a news conference. I think RFK Jr. is filing his lawsuit this week too. This isn’t off topic. Meanwhile, I think Mexico will put up a fight at having their election stolen. Greg Palast says it’s Fla. 2000 all over again.27b7 Thanks Brad
Big Dan #51
I think when Dredd says “War was the response of George and the despots” it explains it.
We declared our freedom peacefully and George responded with war. We then fought to protect the freedom which we had already declared.
Kind of a fine line, but a distinction never the less.
Molly #52
27b7 ?
While I agree with Dredd that our country was “formed at the end of a pen” and not the end of a gun, it took a gun to “make the point stick”.. That is, as he pointed out, those with anger filling their minds attacked us and we defended ourselves and proved our resolve.
Now, 230 years later, we sit here with an oppressive government that is contradicting the premise of “all men are created equal”, and is taking money from the masses and handing to the rich elite of our country. The rub becomes symantics..
Our “government” is perfect (in principle). We have the people decide who should be in office, and those people pass laws in accordance to the Constitution of the United States and designed to protect us from “ourselves” and those that would harm us (Corporate Interests).
In practice, we don’t have that “government”.. we have the “rich elite” buying the representitives once the people put them in office (or before by helping them convince the people to vote for them). We have “lobbyists” out there trying to tell the best/most convincing lies they can to the representitives so the laws being pased favor the lobbyists (despite what the “facts” might be, or regardless of if those laws are in the “people’s” best interest).
We have near 98% incumbancy in our government. MOST of the people running the show are “wealthy” people who have a long family history of being politicians. They are appointing their “friends” to postitons of power, then they are moving them into corporations that benefit from the laws passed under their watch. Corruption IS the order of the day.
We don’t need to change our government, we need to change the cogs that spin inside of it. We need to get our “local governments” cleaned up so they can function and start to influence the Federal Government. We need to motivate our children to CARE about their country, CARE about how their tax dollars are spent, CARE about the truth and justice and fairness.. As it is today, our kids care about what other people think of them, care about if their toys are up to par with what their friends have, care about if they have pimples because the “cute kids” might not accept them, care about… well.. tons of shit that just doesn’t matter.. But, what they don’t care about is life, liberty, and the persuit of (real) happiness. Corporate America is innundating our kids (and society) with messages of “buy this to have value” and “you’ll only be liked if you purchase these things”. People like that don’t care about “real” issues, they care about superficialities and transient things.
We are “re-declaring” our independence here in the blogsphere.. We are speaking out against a system that is corrupt and broke and needs to have it’s parts swapped out. But, those parts are not going to be removed peacefully. They are not going to give up their cushy (very well paying) jobs because the people say “hey, you need to do your job better”. Ney, those in power don’t want to give up their cake for the “masses”.. we’re going to have to pull them out by the roots, like a rotten tooth; Pulling teeth is a painful prospect.
When Congress refuses to hold the President accountable for violating crimes, and they refuse to police themselves, we, the people, have little choice but to “march in the streets” and demand a changing of the guard. And be assured, when Shrubby and the bulk of Congress see “the people” marching, they will open fire. Why do you think people aren’t marching yet?
Our July 4, 1776 experience was that of a miniscule emerging democracy. Formed without a shot.
India, the largest democracy on earh, was formed without a shot as well. Thanks to Mahatma Gandhi and the Indian people.
It can be likened to opening a corner store. When you put up your sign you exist for real.
When later someone comes in at the point of a gun and wants to rob you of what you have, it does not mean that you are not a store any longer.
When you are robbed you are still a store.
America was formed by the Declaration of Independence and thus American Freedom has nothing to do with spilling blood, it has to do with enlightened thinking. That robbers came later to rob us does not change the origin of our freedom.
When we were attacked on December 7, 1941 it did not change everything, and when we were attacked on September 11, 2001, it did not change everything.
Nothing whatsoever can change the original source of our freedom … the pen guided by enlightened thinking.
Our store will be robbed from time to time but the origins are nevertheless still there for any other people to do the same thing.
Get together and think enlightened thoughts, then put your pen to work. Then stay free … and don’t let robberies by thiefs make you fold up shop.
Please note (again, the film “1776” is a great reference) that by the time the Declaration was debated and signed in the summer of 1776, the nation that would be created by it (previously, simply “The Colonies”) was ALREADY at war with England. Well, at least SOME of it was, much as SOME of us are already at war with the Fascists in power, even as others still believe we are engaged in “Business as Usual.”
There is a tipping point coming.
The internet has changed everything, as the “dominant paridigm” is no longer totally contrived and controlled by the “mainstream media.” The SINGLE most powerful message and weapon we have is to push those people who still get their “information” from the mass media towards blogs such as BradBlog and others (RawStory, Truthout.org, BuzzFlash, Consortium News, OpEdNews, etc.).
THAT is why they want to control the internet.
It really IS the most dangerous (and democratic) weapon ever created.
Charlie L
Portland, OR
The test of the premise is this:
If someone later declares war on you because you declared independence, that does not change the origin of your freedom. It originated in your mind.
A later invasion may become the end of your physical freedom, but do not be confused as the neoCons are, as to the source of the freedom. It is the mind.
The invasion and occupation of Iraq can no more be the origin of their freedom than can the invasion and occupation of America by Britain.
Beginning and ending are different realities. Even NASCAR folks know the difference between “gentlemen start your engines” and the checkered flag.
Make no mistake, Dredd..
shots are being fired and it’s only going to get uglier.
We’re seeing this great country being ripped apart by “hate mongers” and “christians”. Tollerance is a thing of the past (or was never really established). The time for “declaration” is passed, now is a time to run the robbers out of the store. But, in true pacifist terms, most Dems are standing at the open cash-drawer in a cold sweat hoping they don’t get shot. There aren’t enough “shop keepers” in the store, and the safty in numbers paradigm is broken now. Being “enlightened” is almost a crime now.. After thought comes action..
… would some admin fix post #42 … it is a wide distraction …
#48 – Dredd said Lets put together a brad blog reunion at the peace house or camp casey”¦ I am going sometime…
Let’s see — 1.) Buy lunch for Brad 2.) Visit Camp Casey for Brad Blog reunion.
I’ll be so busy this summer.
Damn, I forgot, 3.) Save democracy.
(Seriously, I would like to get down there this summer.)
…and a BB reunion would be great.
I look forward to the day when people can declare independence and no one will invade them for it.
Freedom can exist without war.
The question that remains is when what you invade and occupy is the source of your “freedom”, is that the freedom envisioned in the Declaration of Independence?
#61 dredd How post #42 a wide distraction Do you dispute it? What is your Issue ? Speak to me chief? Here I is …
I stand by and on my post #42 & it is most relevent in this Thread.
JOJ #65
The proper width is about 33% less than that width … it is the asterisks your honor … no matter how long you stand on it bro …
#67 Dredd – Are saying it’s JUST an issue of format?
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Live now Bobby Kenedy Jr.with Sam Seder (guest host for Rhandi Rhodes) AAR Radio
Charlie L #58
You said the nation “was ALREADY at war with England. Well, at least SOME of it was”.
Assuming your premise (which is debatable), would you say that it was war, then, that created the Declaration of Independence?
Or was the Declaration of Independence created in the minds of the people and then written down by pen onto paper?
In other words can there be a creation of independence without a war … in the future … in the past … or is independence always the offspring of war?
I think you may see that I am trying to dislodge some of the military industrial complex (MIC) propaganda the psy op has hypnotized us into. For decades now.
Big Brother, in orwellian terms, believes that there is no peace nor freedom without war.
In other words war is the mother of all peace and freedom in the propaganda of the MIC.
I reject that categorically, because if it was true the people would have figured that out by now, and we would have a hell of a lot more war and rejoicing everytime a bomb blows the arms and legs off a kid.
Instead we weep and morn.
JOJ #68
Yep, long live the independence of the internet. Sorry, I thought you got it in your post #45 …
Dredd, JOJ: ok guys! I have changed post #42 so that it now says the same thing but it looks different. THIN is IN!! and I hope everybody is happy with the thread at the moment. If not, complain to me … that’s what I am here for (evidently) 😉
“In other words can there be a creation of independence without a war “¦ in the future “¦ in the past “¦ or is independence always the offspring of war?”
You are not offering a valid set of premises here, Dredd. It’s a logical fallicy you are creating.
In OUR history (presuming Charlie is correct), we declared independence because we got tired of the oppression and “war” being foisted upon us. There are ‘wars’ that do NOT result in a “declaration of independence”, and you are correct in your original premise that a people can “declare independence” without “starting the war” (that will likely follow).
This isn’t about propaganda, this is about fact and human nature.
If someone “is in power” and their “subjects” declare independence, the person in power will inflict violence upon those declarators. If, under different circumstances, the “leader” is “violently oppressing” a people (in effect, war is already upon them), those people may just well “delcare independence” and make their “war” official.
In our history, King George was already “fighting” with the Colonies (as I understand it). Troops were quartered in our homes (martial law), and in some places, full on fighting was going on against those troops.
Declaring independence is sepperate from (but often intertwined with) war. You just don’t often see them too far apart in time..
Some of the “freedom” you are talking about is a “state of mind”.. much like a prisoner can be “free” if they “ignore their bars and chains”.. Some of what you’re saying (sounds like, anyway) seems to be that “it’s ok if we’re oppressed because we can delcare independence and freedom in our own minds, and therefore be ‘fee’ in our thoughts, something they can’t ‘reasonably’ touch or take from us”. Freedom has many implications.. and the one we’re discussing here is “freedom from oppression” in addition to the myriad of other “freedoms” we can think of.
The neo-Cons that are in there now, if they didn’t have the Police and the Army behind them, I’d take me and another guy (unarmed) and we could walk right up and take the keys (to our house) back that they stole without raising a hand
We are slipping:
(link here).
Thanks WP … you are more than format, bro, you got da spirit!!!
Never forget. Always remember. Always be ready to the next battle in the War of Independence. Someday yet we may free our nation from tyranny. It’s the willingness to stand for freedom and justice that counts.
I am so Happy to see Brad & Bobby Pick up the Torch . . .
W.P. I’ll live with it . . .
Savantster #72
Interesting premise that “human nature” is at the core of it.
I think the nature of power is at the core of it.
What about “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”?
Should that be “human nature corrupts and absolute human nature corrupts absolutely”?
I don’t think I put forth a false premise at all.
What is the source of independence: war or enlightened thinking.
My premise was and is that enlightened thinking is the source of independence, not war.
Gotta go … you guys deal with it. Talk to you tomorow.
“What about “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”?
Should that be “human nature corrupts and absolute human nature corrupts absolutely”?”
It’s “human nature” to allow “power to corrupt”. There are those that can “resist” the trend, but “most people” will want to see how far they can push their “power”, or will twist it into something “normal” people are sickend by. I would say, if we want to meld the two concepts, that we’d have “Human nature allows power to corrupt, and human nature allows absolute power to corrupt absolutely”. Power, like a gun, does nothing without the will of a person behind it. Both can be used for good or malice.. the end is decided by the human weilding it.
“I don’t think I put forth a false premise at all.
What is the source of independence: war or enlightened thinking.”
Or perhaps it’s born (occasionaly) from strife and a desire to not hurt anymore (meaning, not from enlightenment, not from “war”, but from oppression).
Independence CAN be (and ususally is) born of enlightened beings desiring to create a better world, but the need for a better world tends to come from an observance of existing grievences and the intelligence to understand that those pains don’t need to be there. But, independence can be born out of “greed” as well (as in a state/people wanting to be “independant” from a group/people that abvocate peace when those seaking to profit from conflict see their independence can be lucrative).
I guess it comes down to trying to force a single causal position with independence, and there is no single cause.. Therefore, looking at it as if there were (a single cause) is what I meant as a “false premise”. *shrug*
In the end, I think we would all agree that a peaceful reslolution resulting in independence and freedom is always preferable.. Well, by “us”.. “they” don’t care what the results are, so long as they get their wars..
yep, and liberals are going to throw off such government by making up names to call their opponents on blogs.
to bad you guys threw away your right to keep and bear arms to make possible such a throwing off of such a government.
or you could just do like the rest of us did and wait a couple of years. clinton left, after eight years. but he left, so as not to kill any other children at any other ruby ridges and wacos. it took a while but it happened. get people to vote a majority for a dem for the first time in like 30 years and you got a bloodless coup. and you dont have to sharpen your sporks to make it happen.
Savantster #78
There is a single source for the Declaration of Independence. The enlightened minds and their pens.
They fired no shots, they penned words.
Then they told the world who they were, the people of the people, the source of our independence.
And it is a special independence which is proven by what they did next … the constitution … again … not a product of war, but rather a product of enlightened minds at the end of a pen.
Savantster #78
Which flavor of “human nature” are you in reference to? There seems to be a menu of selections to choose from:
(link here).
The notion that “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely” is clean. It can be applied with much more clarity than the notion of “human nature”.
Of course the “power” mentioned is not the power that is included in e = m (c * c) … or P = W / t, but is instead social power.
Which gives rise to a mystery … why does the composition of power include toxins? (Toxins are the entities that corrupt.)
It seems to me that this subject is so large, has so much scope, that semantics will throw a wrench into the gears … and analysis would require tight definitions if anyone was to really boil it down.
Anyway, those were interesting ideas you presented.
dredd,
that is a beutifull sentiment. but it is missing the rest of the story. those guys drafted the declaration of independance and then enforced it at the end of a bayonet. had they lost, every one of them would have been hunted down and hung. their enlightened minds being snuffed out unless they played a gamble against the greatest military force the word had yet known. a navy that had defeated a superior spanish armada. an army that had conquered most of the known world. they won not only with mental acumen, but with strength of arms as well.
war is necessary at times. say what you will about the conflict we are currently in, but we will not be speaking english for too many more generations if we run every time some tree hugger gets their diaper dirty. foes who have nothing militarily to compare with us are already calling us “paper tigers,” and they are being proven right by murtha and some of those “patriots” here.
Are the networks going to ignore Cindy Sheehan’s hunger strike? God, that woman has guts!
hey popeye: USA invaded a defenseless country which posed no threat to us. That’s a little bit different than a tree hugger getting his diaper dirty.
So far we have killed a couple hundred thousand people, maimed and tortured thousands of others, ruined the Iraqi infrastructure, poisoned the entire region with depleted uranium, and done our best to start a civil war there. For what? Nothing. It doesn’t do any good for us and it doesn’t do any good for the Iraqis.
They didn’t have anything to do with al-qaida, they didn’t have anything to do with 9/11, they didn’t have any weapons of mass destruction, and we had no legitimate reason to wage war against them.
Everyone who supports this invasion and occupation — more, anyone who does not actively oppose it — is an accomplice in a horrendous crime against all of humanity.
If you are not smart enough to understand the truth of this statement then you might as well click here.
LOL, WP! I could totally hang with popeye’s first paragraph, but he just ruined it in the second. Was going to wait for Dredd to respond, but….
Well….
POPEYE, really, if you don’t get it, DO use Winter Patriot’s link!!!!
Please. Thank you.
My by now extremely anti-climactic Fourth banner:
link
Just a little something for popeye & friends:
“The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many”¦. may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”
–James Madison
From Lawrence Britt’s “Fascism, Anyone?”…
“…I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Francos Spain, Salazars Portugal, Papadopouloss Greece, Pinochets Chile, and Suhartos Indonesia…
…Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power…
…14. Fraudulent elections.
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating an disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite…”
“…even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer…”
link
Poopyhead..
Back again, I see. And still full of ignorance and distraction, and on this thread, one of great honor to our forefathers.
As Dredd points out, OUR “Declaration of Independence” was done by enlightend minds with a pen. Then, as was pointed out by SEVERAL of us (including no dissention from Dredd), we had to buttress our declaration with resolve and GUNS (bayonets, as you say). Dredd is still accurate in his assertion that “smart guys used their brains to start the ball of freedom rolling, and it started with the push of a pen, not the pull of a trigger”. You, on the other hand, offer nothing insightful or usefull to this discussion.
Secondly, not all “liberals” are against “gun ownership”.. In fact, I have several. Come to my house and tell me you plan on enforcing some Fascist agenda and see how long it takes before this “tree hugger” dirties a diaper.. Hint: it won’t be my diaper being filled, it will be those coming to take my liberties who will soil themselves while looking down the barrel of a .357 Magnum and .40 cal Semi-Auto.
Perhaps you should call me a Constitutionalist, not a “liberal”. Unfortunately for you and the Religious Right, our Cosntitution secures equal rights for ALL MEN. Part of why I support allowing Gays to marry and adopt.. it also calls for no government sponsorship of a specific religion, which is why I oppose showing the 10 commandments in public spaces. And it calls for “good citizens” to “bear arms” to protect themselves and their country from enemies foriegn and DOMESTIC.. that domestic bit includes you, the bulk of the trolls here, Shrubby, and our corrently massively corrupt Congress that refuses to hold our leader(s) to the law. In a nation of Laws, when one people is allowed to be exempt from law, the entire system becomes invalid and needs to be fixed.
You lose, poopyhead. Your position, this time and all the times you’ve posted here in the past, is flawed and wrong. Your assertions are assinine and logically lacking. Your thinking inadequate and dysfunctional.
Clearly, you care not a wit for this country or it’s Constitution. Get out of my country you fascist piece of shit.
Dredd.. What I was getting at with “human nature” was the tendancy of how people will act..
“According to the accepted modern scientific understanding human nature is the range of human behavior that is believed to be normal and/or invariant over long periods of time and across very different cultural contexts.”
I would argue that what you posted was not a statement about “human nature”, but of “the nature of humans”.. which is something I consider completely different. “There are a number of perspectives regarding the fundamental nature and substance of humans” implies a philosophical context for “what are we, where do we come from, and what/how does that influence us”.. what I was getting at was a Psychological context of how “most people tend to act in a given situation”.
I agree that symantics is a huge part of this, and until it’s all hammered out you can’t have a “scientific” understanding/concensus of the position. But, we’re not writing a dissertation here.. We were talking about “someone” declaring independence and all the ways it could come about. When we’re talking about “our” Declaration of Independence, we’re talking about one of those many ways in which a people can come to the end of needing to declare it. We had a certian motivation while other people could have other motivations. In the case of the United States, I agree with you 100% that enlightend men formed this country with a thought at the end of a pen (and then later had to enforce that thought with a war). It’s the fact that the Religious Right and “Conservatives” and Republicans don’t appriciate the wisdom and courage of our Founding Fathers and would be content to destroy this country and turn it into an oppressive religiously governed place that I find offensive.
In short.. to me..
Human Nature -> Psychology -> tendencies of most people
Nature of Humans -> Philosophy -> what are we, how did we get here, and what are the implications of the various premises.
If anyone of you computer-savvy people out there can tell me how to post a picture here, I’d appreciate it. I tried using a hosting site…none of their options worked for me, though they did using the old system.
man that is harsh savy. “you lose” and thats it. man, scintilating verbal thrust to my core, as usual.
so you have guns. great, really. i applaud that. but too many of your friends want them gone. if i lumped you into that category than you have done the same. you assume i am interested in forcing my worldview on you at the point of a gun. you are wrong. i would not silence all of my critics if i had the chance. we need disenting opinion, it is how our government works. it is how people work. we are not ants, we do not blindly follow easily. we need debate and discussion to function in this society.
that said i try to persuade my opponents of the moral and intellecual gap in their arguements. such as,”we invaded a country that was no threat to us.” they had wmd, or did you not get that tps report. granted, old stuff, but proved sadam never complied with the un resolutions to destroy them.
as far as getting out of “your country” and the rest of your small minded giberish you can keep it, and your stupid links. it rolls from me like water from a ducks back. if it makes you feel better spouting explicatives and proving your iq is less than your shoe size its your problem, not mine.
Savantster: It’s OUR country… and, it may only remain so because of our right to bear arms, but I don’t think we get to boot-out our fellow citizens with them because they piss us off.
popeye: I really appreciate that you pointed out just how much the founders had at stake. Too many of us think they were just a bunch of privileged guys who wanted their own country, nothing to lose. Back in those days, an administration like the one we have now would not have lasted nearly this long, and its demise would have been SERIOUSLY UNCOMFORTABLE for the constitution-flaunting pigs.
There is no justification for our invasion of Iraq; there may actually have been none for Afghanistan either. I don’t care how old or infirm you may be, if you support that action, really, GO THERE and get a reality check.
Guys, men, please don’t flame out under The Declaration of Independence, fer cripes sakes. Too harsh.
Maybe Someday there will be 12 step programs for . . . . . fox news addiction. . .
#83 – I agree – money talks when it comes to the MSM IE: k-lay news…
thanks agent99,
we certainly disagree on a lot of points but it is good to see some people can be rational about it.
ps, i come from a long line of military, i have family that fought in all American conflicts. i myself was unable to serve for medical reasons, but spent plenty of time talking to the recruiters about it.
Well, popeye, maybe you could serve by getting work as a pencil-pusher for one of the contractors over there. Apply at Halliburton. Some creative way of getting there and FINDING OUT just how much misery we have caused, and are enduring, there for LIES, for the enrichment of already fabulously wealthy swine.
You probably could find this out right here, if you were disposed to LOOK, but somehow you seem to think this boils down to a matter of opinion, and it boils down to cold, hard FACT.
Part of my love and respect for our military is about knowing that they are sworn to give their lives for me. I AM CRAZY WITH HATE OF THE COLD, HARD FACT THAT SOMEONE HAS USED THIS SWORN DUTY TO ME TO LINE THEIR OWN POCKETS, AND ADVANCE THEIR PERSONAL INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD. I swear, the brave boys who piled off the boats onto the beaches at Normandy, into almost certain death, so that we might have our country free of people like the current administration forever, are spinning in their graves. This is the biggest slap in the face to the honor and memory of every man and woman who EVER made the ultimate sacrifice for our sakes imaginable.
Please, popeye. I can tell you love our country. Do the work it takes to find out what’s real, what’s true. It’s not on Fox.
agent99,
i got a good one for you. i have been looking all morning for this but have been busy at work. Nathan Hale was an officer in the conneticut militia who was captured by the british and hung without a trial during the early parts of the war for independance. it is said he uttered from the gallows this valiant phrase before his execution..
“I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.”
i could not remember his name, so it took a little longer to find. gotta love google.
Yup, I’m always, always, hollering out names like PATRICK HENRY and NATHAN HALE, sometimes till I’m hoarse. It could well be that our country has not been the good guys we all like to think we are for a long time, maybe even from inception (not forgetting all the people we killed, slaughtered, to have our way here to begin with), but that sure as hell doesn’t mean we can’t come together and forge a more perfect union! Oh, hell, no. We CAN make the USA the best civilization in history, even with all the blots on our good name, all the betrayals of the heroes who died willingly for us, all the filthy assassinations of good men who wanted to stop the bad ones.
Please, don’t try to justify our military aggressions anymore. Even if it hurts, if you do love the USA, you will do the work to find out the truth, and help us stop the killing. I think our soldiers deserve to know they will never have to face death for us unless and until there is absolutely no other way. Tens of thousands of people’s lives have been squandered behind something that is no kind of American ideal, and is in no way insuring our safety… only making us more unsafe.
agent99,
i have done the work. i can only look at photos of the aftermath of the battles and look at the dead from my computer screen. i admit it is not near enough, but better than relying on others to inform me of this themselves. and that is something you will not find on any news service, including cnn, msnbc, abc, and so on. you wont even find that on al-jazeera. and yes, i read them too.
i knew what we were going into on the onset though. i knew the decision would result in the deaths of thousands. it is a part of war, and the two are not able to be separated. anyone that voted for war that now oppose it are more ignorant that you accuse me of being, i assure you.
i disagree that this is for “oil” or “helps the rich” any more than any conflict before this. war helps economy, that has always been true. we left the great depression in the dust on the onset of ww2. that companies are selling more to the government is not in itself evil. and it is counterintuitive to me to think we are paying the price we are for gas and that is a war trophy. there has to be consequences for ignoring the un, and the rest of the international community. and it must be more than sanctions. cuba is alive and well with sanctions in place for 40 years. it is not a big enough deterant. and the un has castrated themselves on the matter. what would you have suggested instead?
Okay, I’m done. Saddam did NOT ignore the UN, we knew it, and the looters in charge of our country manipulated intelligence to LIE us into invading Iraq… maybe Afghanistan, too.
Here’s a link to the FRONTLINE piece that is directly on point. You can watch it, and come away wiser.
Saddam was bluffing in order to keep Iran at bay. Period. He did what the international community told him to.
While war may help the economy, in such cases, fuck the economy, dude. You want your kids dead so your neighbors’ investments grow?
THIS ISN’T A CARTOON! You can’t just shrug and say, “War is hell,” when we’re in it for such an array of greedy, ugly, nefarious reasons. Our troops aren’t fighting for our democracy, and they are clearly not fighting for Iraq’s either, which would only have been okay if the Iraqis had asked us. If war had been in any measure warranted there, the UN would have gotten to it with our pressure. It did NOT, and rightfully so.
popeye: I respect your right to form and express your own opinion but I have to tell you that you’re not making any sense. I don’t have time to point out all the places where your last post trips over itself, so here’s just one example:
So what? We should let this horror show continue because our ancestors made mistakes? Shake your head, popeye, — you’ve got something stuck in there, buddy.
popeye you are right about this:
The gas is not a war trophy. The war was never about getting us the gas cheaply. It was and always has been about putting control of the rate of production in the hands of the big oil companies and not the Iraqis — in order to pump it out more slowly and make more money on it that way.
Greg Palast has been all over this for a long time and if you would just spend some time at his site — Greg Palast dot Com — you could learn a lot … oh I forgot, you know everything already. 🙁
“they had wmd, or did you not get that tps report. granted, old stuff, but proved sadam never complied with the un resolutions to destroy them.”
And the latest report (by Republicans) fails to take into account all the weapons he DID (and was) destroy.. and it fails to take into account that those “weapons” were 100% inefectual.. By all accounts, they are not “wmd”s, they are forgotten relics that were no threat to anyone. You’re grasping at straws.
And this IS about oil. That is, OIL makes the world go ’round, always has (in modern times). The PROBLEM is, we’re running out, and fast. Solution? Get your hands on the second biggest KNOWN reserves (possibly the biggest in the world once we finish exploring the 90% of the country that wasn’t explored yet). Why do you think the oil has already been divied up? and it’s flowing already (and being stolen already)? You are almost right though, it’s not “just” about oil.. it’s also about Manifest Destiny and forcing our “western values” down the throats of the Middle East. Iraq wanted a Socialism, we broke that up.. they wanted Iraqi only business owners, we broke that up.. We don’t give a SHIT about Iraqis, we only care about how we can profit there (and yes, that’s WRONG).
“to bad you guys threw away your right to keep and bear arms to make possible such a throwing off of such a government.”
To which I said “Come to my house and tell me you plan on enforcing some Fascist agenda and see how long it takes “.. I didn’t say anything about “you” (Poopyhead) forcing your views at the end of a gun, I said I’ll defend my rights with mine..
And Agent99, I didn’t say anything about using my guns to “force fellow citizens out”, I said I’d use them in defense of myself and my country.. and, as a side note, told someone who doesn’t seem to support the Constitution that they should leave if they don’t like the “rules” here.. Seems reasonable to me..
“war helps economy, that has always been true” .. It was only true up to WWII, then it stopped being so “helpful”. That is, now it only helps “a few”.. We’re not making massive amounts of tanks and we’re not making massive amounts of bullets. There has NOT been a full scale industrial “mobilzation” with this “war”.. We’ve not made a lot of “new jobs” working for the war effort, like in the past..
None of which has any bearing that Saddam and Iraq was NOT A THREAT to the U.S., period, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Report after report for 3+ years has shown this to be the case.. and the occasional misinformational tactic by “your guys” never holds water and proves to be a political stunt.
Agent99, you’re wasting your time with a troll™ .. he’s not here to learn, he’s here to distract and misinform.
Savantster
You’re right. I was so happy to hear him reminding people of the Founders’ jeopardy, that I was willing to work with him on his ignorant opinion of our occupation of Iraq.
You’re also right about the booting him out with your gun thing. I guess my only quibbles with your earlier post were its harsh tone at the end, and, much as I want to order people out of my country, left and right, I keep getting stopped by the, sometimes appalling, fact that it is their country too.
Well, I would argue that it’s only “your” country if you are willing to fight for it, and live by the confines established in the Constitution. Since most “right wing nutjobs” and their ilk do NOT care to live in the confines of the historical documents that founded this country, I don’t consider them worthy of “staying here”. And, knowing he’s a huge troll™, I don’t feel bad about having a harsh tone.. There’s a time and place to try and be polite, and here, when trolls™ are spewing their bile, is not one of them (to me).. *shrug*
I mean, a whole bunch of us LOVE to talk tough, but when it comes to putting our own asses on the line like the Founders did, not so much. I’m a raving peacenik, but, dammit, I will get over my nonviolence long enough to back up The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I’m a pretty wobbly old excuse for a soldier, but show me the way to defend those, and I’ll be steady enough for government work!
It makes me crazy to hear people griping about the fascism descending on us like a cloud of Agent Orange, but suggest that they do something about it, and, well, no, no, that would be too much like getting in trouble. Ptooey! Every single human who ever died for their country, died defending their greater family, had as much and more to lose than we do. What makes us so special we have to shrink from conflict with criminals for our greater family?
ah savanster,
i was wondering when you would pop back up. just so you know, mustard gas doesnt turn into grey poupon after a time, it is still lethal just not as potent. meaning it would not cause the same damage it would have when it was new. and sadam destroyed plenty, fair enough, and we have known that for years. but not ALL, like he was supposed to. you want to say he convieniently forgot about some when the entire planet is clamoring at him about this very subject and you accuse me of having my head in the sand?
agent99, i am not just throwing this off as “war is hell.” i am pointing out i knew then, and now, what it meant. you say this is not a game, and clearly you are right, and i am not disputing that. but to say that there cannot be two sides of the point is false. a lot, and i mean a lot of our guys have re-upped and gone back. i know quite a few myself. they believe they are doing something worth their sacrifice. you disagree with them, seems like two points of view to me.
that you know your history also made me swell with respect for you. if you are ever in the greater phoenix area let me know and i will buy you a beer.
savy, if you are ever in the greater phoenix area let me know so i can lock up my house a little tighter and alert the authorities.
I hear some folks take that old mustard gas, put it on their balogna sandwich and eat it… With a Koolaid chaser.
actually, it turns into hydrocloric acid and some other stuff. HCl is strong acid, and it sucks to get on you, or in you, or around you. they use very watered down stuff in pools, but the kind that is in mustard gas is concentrated stuff and will melt your skin while you watch. it dissociates completely in water, which means moist parts of the body are highly succeptible to its effects. that is your mouth, eyes, and ears.
if you get some and eat it, tell me what its like if you still can. i would be curious. it was nicknamed mustard gas because it smelled like mustard or garlic to those it was used on.
Poopyhead… First, HCL is an acid, but it has varrying levels of potency. Mustard (as I’ve found trying unsuccessfully to find the ‘time to non lethality’) “hydrolizes” into HCL (and some other thing), which means it breaks down to that in “water”. It actually does NOT disolve very well in water, it redily disolves in fats and oils, which is part of the mechanism involved in the process of destruction of cells.
And, as is the normal form for “justifiers”, you imply that “HCL is bad and will burn your skin off”, yet leave out the part where the molarity matters.. a LOT. You also ignore the fact that HCL is the acid IN YOUR STOMACH, and you don’t die from that. (I will, however, concede that it’s LIKELY that the HCL formed during hydrolization of Mustard Gas WILL cause damage, but I doubt it’s “lethal” like the Mustard is).
And, at the end of the day, your guy claimed 200 metric TONS of Mustard is out there (along with hundreds of tons of other stuff), and they have only found 500 shells in 3 years. FAR from “200 metric tons of agent”. Your implication that finding 500 rounds scattered around the country over 3 years “proves Saddam was working on WMDs” or “he was hiding massive supplies” is ludicris.
And, again, you’re hijacking the thread. Our Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with Iraq. Unless you count the way we’re shoving our ideologies down their throats, against their will.
Just admit it was wrong to invade Iraq, and you will feel a lot better. You can go forward with a positive attitude then. Good things might happen then. It’s honestly that simple.
popeye:
Still losing sleep over those aluminum tubes?
This War Is Based On Denial
The Reality Beneath The Flag-waving
By Paul Craig Roberts
7-4-6
Americans who get their propaganda from Fox “News” or are told what to think by right-wing talk radio hosts are outraged at news reports that US troops planned and carried out the rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman. They are not outraged that the troops committed the deed; they are outraged that the media reported it. These “conservatives,” who proudly wear their patriotism on their sleeves, dismiss the reports of the incident as a Big Lie floated by “the anti-American liberal media” in order to demoralize Americans and reduce public support for the war.
Playing to this audience, Col. Jeffrey Snow, a US brigade commander in Baghdad, told AFP News that news coverage could cause the US to lose the war. In other words, what we are doing in Iraq cannot stand the light of day, so reporters must not report or the word will get out.
Many Bush supporters believe that truth is not on our side and must be suppressed. Yet, they support a war that is too shameful to report.
I have made it clear in my columns that Bush supporters are not true conservatives. They are brownshirts with the same low intelligence and morals as Hitler’s enthusiastic supporters. And they are just as resistant to facts.
It was not the “liberal media” but the investigating US military officials who told the Associated Press that the rape and murder of the young woman and her family appeared “totally premeditated,” that the soldiers noticed the woman on their patrols and studied her and her family for a week before separating the woman from her family and raping her. After having their way with her, the soldiers murdered her and tried to burn her body with a flammable liquid in order to cover up their foul deed. The soldiers’ coverup attempt also involved the murder of other members of the murdered rape victim’s family, including a child.
The criminals were turned in by other US soldiers who knew of the monstrous crime. According to the Associated Press (USA Today, June 30, 2006), one of the soldiers has admitted his role in the rape and murder.
The soldiers cannot be said to be guilty until they are tried and found guilty. However, the US military usually attempts a cover-up of such incidents and only admits to the facts after the press gets hold of them. This time, however, the investigating officials themselves gave the story to the Associated Press.
Many Americans are so unsophisticated that they refuse to believe anything bad about their country. They regard acceptance of unpalatable truths as disloyalty. This failure of American character is why Bush has been able to get away with transgressions that scream out for his impeachment and trial as a war criminal.
The premeditated rape and murders are just the latest in the long line of horrific war crimes from Abu Ghraib to Haditha. Bush supporters are still in denial about each incident. It is amazing that Bush supporters think we have a John Wayne military when, according to news reports, recruitment problems have resulted in the military accepting felons, drug users, thugs, low IQ high school dropouts, and illegal Mexicans promised green cards for signing up. Apparently, the same people who make America’s streets unsafe for Americans make Iraqi streets unsafe for Iraqis. In response to the declining caliber of new recruits, some of our best troops are refusing to reenlist. Several have written to me that “the Army has left them.”
Whoever put out that propagandistic slogan, “support the troops,” and the ribbon decals was a master propagandist. “Support the troops” means to deny the reality of the war and the behavior of the troops.
To this day the Bush regime and the neocon nazis have not told us the reason for their invasion of Iraq, the destruction of its towns and infrastructure, and the slaughter of its citizens. Every reason Bush has given has proved to be a lie.
There is no more reason for US troops to be shooting up Iraq than to be shooting up Canada, Scotland, Holland, Spain, Taiwan, Florida, Virginia or California. We are killing Iraqis for no other reason than that they resist our invasion and occupation of their country.
It is proof of the collapse of American morals and the fallen character of the American people that the American public and its elected representatives in Congress refuse to rein in the Bush regime and to hold it responsible for its monstrous crimes.
America has become a land of evil. The rest of the world hates and despises us. And we are going to pay a terrible price for it. Bush’s belief that our superpower status makes us immune to the opinion of others goes beyond hubris into insanity.
Dr. Roberts is Chairman of the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute. He is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, former contributing editor for National Review, and was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He is the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.
We love our country, we hate rightwing radio, rightwing trolls, and the Republican dictatorship.
We love our country, trolls. YOU, on the other hand, hate our country, and love the Republican dictatorship.
We love the troops. There’s a difference between dying for your country and dying for your government. There’s a difference between “country” and “government”.
When rightwing radio says, “Why do liberals hate our country?” They are really saying, “Why do liberals hate US?” Well we hate YOU (not our country) because you are for torture causing our troops to be tortured, taking money from medicare/medicaid/college funds for tax cuts for the super-rich, you are for destroying our environment, spying on American citizens via the phone and bank accounts, you are for murdering civilains, you are for half our countries taxes going towards military profits for Halliburton but you don’t pay the actual soldiers SHIT, you are for lying about everything under the sun and corrupt government (Abramoff) and making excuses for the liars in government that are hurting US and YOU, but you’re too stupid to know it or you’re just shills.
I thought of the best answer for rightwingers who say, “Why do liberals hate our country?” The answer is, “We love our country, we hate YOU.” YOU…meaning rightwing radio, the Republican dictatorship, and the kook-aid listeners of rightwing radio. WE LOVE OUR COUNTRY! YOU HATE OUR COUNTRY!
We are allowing trolls to “frame” the topic, by saying “Why do liberals hate our country?” By answering this, we are agreeing that “our country” is the corrupt Republican government, rightwing radio, and troll. We have to draw the distiction between “our country” and them. We have to say, “We love our country, we hate the corrupt Republican government/rightwing radio/trolls.”
When they say “The troops are dying for you (Americans),”, we have to say, “The troops are needlessly dying for the Republican-controlled corrupt government, not us. They are dying for you chickenhawks.
They changed “WHY DO LIBERALS HATE US”, into “WHY DO LIBERALS HATE OUR COUNTRY?” And we are allowing them to do that.
Big Dan, they get away with it because it’s their nature to lie and cheat and be deceitful. It’s not in “Democrat’s nature” to be that way (I’ll exclude our “leaders” from that statement since we have a lot of shady Dem leaders out there too..). We don’t notice the DELIBERATE INTENT TO MISLEAD since it’s foriegn to the way our brains work (I believe I saw an article about a study that showed the brain-wave patterns in Republicans tends to be different than in Dems.. Not that I think I could ever find it again).
What it comes down to is, the “right-wing” will start with a lie, causing “honest people” to confront the lie and try to set the record straight. That starts a process of being on the DEFENSIVE, which is what the Pugs like since they have no REAL position of validity. By keeping us “backing up” to cover their concerted push of lies, they give the appearance (to onlookers who aren’t paying attention) that Dems “don’t have a position”. False logic and empty arguments at their best!
Pugs have become masters of “framing” and “orwellian language”. It’s hard for Dems to make sense when debating against insanity 😀
Of course, the CURE to the stranglehold the Pugs have on the issues/debates/etc. is to EDUCATE the masses. Make it so they can see through the fog of putrid gas the Pugs spew.. Why do you think the Pugs want to remove all funding for higher education and only let rich kids have degrees? Why do you think they don’t like having public schools for our kids that actually teach effeciently (meaning no more than 15 kids per teacher)? Knowledge truly is power, and the rich-elite want to keep their corner on the market.
You got it, Savantster. As you have pointed out on other occasions, the power elite always prefer uneducated national inhabitants. (I hesitate to call them citizens.)
With the old story of power elites now comes decades of marketing and psychological research (and deliberate dumbing down into docile consumers), high tech intrusion into privacy, and a revolving door corporate/government employment.
The concept of “citizen” (entailing education and responsibility) will always be liberating. The old Declaration of Independence and Constitution look more and more revolutionary – which is exactly what they are.
savy,
the chemical equation for mustard gas is as follows.
Cl-CH2-CH2-S-CH2-CH2-Cl
from this you can see with your keen analytical mind that it hydrolyses 3 times to form HCl. 3 times is important, because it becomes concentrated HCl, and that is not fun.
i reread my chemestry book, and you are right. it is only slightly soluble in water. but the effects are the same as i remembered. because it is not very soluable it does not wash away well. and it attacks moist areas more including eyes, ears, and mouth. inhaled it blisters the lungs. thanks for the technical correction, but it does not prove your point that the stuff aint that bad even when it gets older.
btw, the “some other thing” part is hemi-mustard and that is a vesicant. it blisters skin on contact. it does not go away. and mustard gas is known to cause cancer if it does not kill you immediately. mustard gas has been known to be still potent 10 years after being used on a battlefield and left in the open air. being stored even slightly better than that it can remain lethal for many times longer.
fun stuff.
so, sadam was supposed to get rid of it, and he did not completely. no one has yet answered my question as to what you would have done with him instead of war. sanctions are no good. the un is too weak to take the action they were supposed to, and they were getting paid by the oil for food scandal so they had no reason to do anything as long as they were getting rich. i do not have to admit it was wrong to invade iraq, especially since those questions are tough ones to answer.
popeye: Puhleze just give it up now. Your question has been answered. You are peeing all over The Declaration of Independence with your persistence with this. Thank you.
agent99, i went back to our earlier posts and did not see an answer to that question. i dont think it is here.
savy, you accuse me of “hijacking the discussion” but i only got here after 70 or so posts, and within the first twenty people had already been bringing up the war. and california. and Viagra. it was already on a wild ride before i showed up, as it always is.
I answered your question. Look again. And, just drop it now. Please.
savy,
one more thing before the weekend. check your facts. republicans do not want less students per teacher!! it is teachers that want that, and they never vote republican as a group. its the dems that are giving them that. coulter, limbaugh, and malkin to name a few have repeatedly decried practices that would increase the teacher to student ratio as not efficient. it has been pointed out also that private schools give better education at an average cost of 6k per year for students, while the worst public schools are costing twice that and getting worse results. more teachers per student is not a republican thing.
as for “It’s not in ‘Democrat’s nature’ to lie” well, the bullshit in here is getting pretty thick thanks to you. big dans uncontrolled flight into insanity has nothing on that one statement. all 5 posts (“why do liberals hate the us” is a question raised 4 times in 5 posts. we got the hint. wrote it down. filed it away. it was just unnecissary after at least the second iteration).
have fun kids. beer and cigars are in my future.
God bless America.
pops, Thanks for reminding me . . . I got to take a dump!
Savanster: I just had it, when I was flicking through the radio channels, and I heard Sean Handjobbity and a shill listener, going back and forth, saying, “Why do liberals hate our country?” And it suddenly occurred to me, they REALLY mean “Why do liberals hate US?” US…meaning rightwing radio & Republicans & kook-aid rightwing radio listeners. If Handjobbity was in my presence while he was saying that I hate “his country”, I would’ve melted his Devo hair on his head. I have zero respect for anyone who is a fan of rightwing radio. I actually think of them as “mentally challenged”, for listening to all those lies and misinformation, and not being smart enough to just say, “You know what? Sean Hannity is full of shit!”
“Why do liberals hate our country?”
Answer to Hannity: “We love our country…we hate YOU!” Learn the difference, Sean. You and your listeners and the Republicans are not “Our Country”…
You can find all of Sean Hannity’s books at your local Walden’s and Barnes & Nobles…they put them right in the “80% off bin” directly…
Big Dan – Here go a few rounds with handjobbity the shameless liar & super chickenhawk . . . Enjoy :
http://www.hannityisamoron.com/
Popeye says “God Bless America”. The hollow line of a hypocrite who wraps himself in the flag and religion, to hide his hypocrisy.
Popeye, please answer this question: Would Jesus be for the Iraq War? God have mercy on you, Popeye.
Judge: I’ve had it with Handjobbity getting a shill on, and both saying “Why do liberals hate our country?” It’s over the breaking point. Thanks for the link.
The real message we have to get across, is that Handjobbity hates our country, and loves the Republicans, rightwing radio, and kook-aid rightwing radio listeners. And he is playing the GOP game of framing the conversation, instead of saying, “Why do liberals hate US?”…and “morphing” it into “Why do liberals hate our country?”
Exactly like Bushco “morphed” Osama/9-11 into Sadaam/Iraq. THE EXACT SAME TACTIC!!! It’s a great tactic. It works on idiots, you know, stupid people like Popeye, who can’t think for themselves. Because if you can think for your self, you’d be against these Bushco criminals, there is no other logical choice. And I love the way Colin Powell is now saying they should close Gitmo.
Colin Powell? FUCK YOU!!! YOU OWN a big share of Gitmo. Not me…
Popeye: I’m not a religious man, but if you are, you believe in judgement day. That’s the big guy judging you, not us. And do you think he’s for the Iraq War? I doubt it. And all these Bushco fake religious people will be judged, too, not by us. I don’t think GOD/Jesus is going to pat them on the back for all the death and destrucion they’ve caused. Stop the “God Bless” crap, you hypocrite. You’re for death and destrucion, and you sign off with “God Bless”, you f***ing hypocrite.
Judge: The first thing you see on that Handjobbity link, is a flag in back of him. Popeye with the “God Bless”…I really want to know how stupid people are??? I’m just telling it like it is. How stupid are these people???
Symbols are huge to the kook-aid drinkers. I believe in America and freedom of speech, not a piece of cloth. America is not a piece of cloth.
Big Ban – I refuse to ABUSE myself by watching fox news, bush or any right wing talkers.
Poopyhead.. here’s the answers to your questions..
First, very few people in the UN were “taking money” from Oil for Food. In fact, several U.S. businessmen were making assloads of money on it to.
Secondly, Saddam WAS DESTROYING MUNITIONS when we invaded. Any attempt to pretend like he wasn’t is bullshit. He was.. Granted, it took troops being shipped to his borders to “make him move faster”, but the FACT is, he was actively destroying weapons (SCUDs and the like) WHEN WE INVADED.. It seems to me that your “desire” was to have weapons destroyed.. to see the resolutions and sanctions “show results”. Yet, you don’t care that results were being achieved. You pretend like it was “too little too late”, despite talking about 100s of thousands of dead people who did NOT have to die because PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE. It was NOT Saddam who “tossed out the inspectors”, it was your pResident.. remember?
Third, it wasn’t just the UN that did NOT support going in, a LOT of countries said “no”, and were working to get those weapons destroyed and inspections held. Claiming that the “few” in the UN who were “getting rich” were the only ones smart enough to see the invasion as ILLEGAL and WRONG is to present a false argument. Progress was being made, and the “few bad apples” in the UN had nothing to do with it.
Fourth, you talk about Saddam and his chemical weapons like they are some how different than anything else going on in various other “bad regeims” around the world.. yet, we’re not invading them and removing their leaders by force. Why not? And, you talk about how the chemicals Saddam were using are “bad”, what about all the depleted uranium we’re loading the entire region up with? All the radio active pollution we’re putting out there that causes cancer to the civilians for several decades, and causes massive birth defects for several decades? What we’re doing to the civilian population is a MILLION times worse (chemically) than ANYTHING Saddam has done to his own people.. If for NOTHING ELSE, that’s a perfectly good reason to GET OUT.. and stop destroying the population for DECADES TO COME..
So.. fact.. Saddam had nothing to do with al-Qaeda or Sept. 11, 2001, or terrorists (there were none in Iraq before we invaded). Tell me again why we have spent well over $300 billion, killed over 2500 troops, killed several hundred thousand Iraqis, turned a country into a toxic wasteland, destroyed their cities, made a terrorist heaven, started a civil war, and have no “plan” to speak of? I’m fuzzy as to why this was a “good idea”, or even “needed”. Saddam was no threat to the U.S., nor was he a real threat to his neighbors. Given all the FACTS, it seems kind of insane that we’re there, and even more so that people find it to be a “good thing”.
big dan,
to be try to answer your question and ignore your other,more frequent raving lunatic rants. would Jesus like us going into iraq? i dont know. in the old testament there were pleny of God sanctioned wars, including the jews originally coming to take over jerusalem. Jesus during his time would not speak against the roman invaders to that same land, and the pharasees were trying to get him to do that to make a case for his execution to the roman government in the area. i think if He would have had some blanket statement to make about “war is not the answer” it would have been then. this is not a reason for invading, but it does point out that it is not necissarily wrong. the jews did not attack the romans, they were simply in the way when the roman troops rolled in.
savy, if sadam had been destroying all his stuff like he was supposed to he would have finished that homework assignment sometime earlier than 10 years after the fact. we would not have tapes of saddam saying they are going to get their weapons programs started again as soon as sanctions were lifted. he was not genuine. as far as there being other regimes out there that have stuff like it, yes, of course there are. but they did not loose a war to us and sign a peace treaty stating we would not bomb them back into the stone age if they didnt stop making wmd, destroy what they have, and abandon the concept. korea, if you remember, fought us to a standstill. we have no other recorse than negotiation without international help. since that would probably turn into ww3 overnight.