READER COMMENTS ON
"An Eyewitness Report From DemocracyFest"
(21 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 1:59 am PT...
Sounds like a pretty good turnout! Most of the right wing crazies around here are going to kill me for saying this, but I'm sure my life here in Salt Lake has been enhanced by you crazy California liberals, going way back.
Keep it up and SAVE US!
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 2:24 am PT...
You said "like too many spineless or brainless Democrats", which is a slur.
Like republicans are going to lead the "election integrity movement"? LOL!
Republicans own the companies who make the corruptable machines and are the prime movers and shakers from top to bottom in it. Those are certainly facts.
If the movement is nonpartisan the way you throw these partisan terms around is at least confusing.
Further, if the movement is bipartisan or nonpartisan then it does not matter who leads.
What matters is what gets done.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 2:27 am PT...
Dredd I said no such thing. Steve Viele wrote that piece. I simply introduced him.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 4:04 am PT...
I see that I missed "The following are Steve's words", and so I re-address post #2 to Steve ... not to WP.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 4:27 am PT...
Well, Dredd, ya hafta admit that it must have been very frustrating for Steve, right there, mano a mano, and getting stonewalled like that. He probably felt he was putting it mildly. I'd've been fit to be tied. In a real sense, all our lives are in the balance, and one of us tries to get answers to questions that really do verge on life and death, only to come up empty.... That's got to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 5:31 am PT...
i would've been very nasty, and probably not helped anything much. the willful ignorance of the consultant/wannabe class makes me insane.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 7/18/2006 @ 5:48 am PT...
Allow me to defend Steve Viele. "Spineless or brainless Democrats" is a slur only in the sense that any name-calling is. A polite way of saying the same thing would be "Democrats who have shown themselves to be neutral on an issue directly impacting democracy."
"Spineless or brainless..." fairly distinguishes those Democrats who have quickly capitulated to questionable election outcomes (the same ones who have taken no public stance on hackable machines or otherwise joined the fight for honest elections) from Democratic leaders like Barbara Boxer, John Conyers, Debra Bowen, Marcy Winograd, and Jeeni Criscenzo.
"Spineless" suggests a fear of standing up to Diebold and its ilk and to the crooked Republican machine allied with these companies. "Brainless" implies an ignorance of the problem. If our goal is to be polite, the words are inappropriate; if we're trying to wake people up, I think Steve Viele's language is perfect.
As Bush says about sovereign countries in the so-called war on terror, "You're either for us, or against us." If he can take that approach, so can we. There's no such thing as neutral here.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 7:03 am PT...
Why am I not surprised?
For a party that claims to speak for "American Values" to ignore the fact that other members of the party, that the leadership of the party is involved in an active national campaign to stop black people from voting, and to steal elections, shows the moral bankruptcy of everybody in that party!
(link here, bold added).
Guess which party he was talking about?
Shouldn't that party be addressed first, by asking "why is the leadership of your party engaged in a national effort to steal elections"?
The answer of course is yes, but some have a psychological need to bash the victims.
That is why the theft continues, spineless and brainless idiocy that does not understand the concept of the decency of justice.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 7:08 am PT...
Thanks so much for this report...it is greatly appreciated!!
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 8:03 am PT...
Perhaps we should all declare how many times we voted for Bush, and why.
I will start: ZERO, because he is a victim basher and a fascist.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 9:30 am PT...
"...spineless and brainless Democrats..."
Absolutely correct wording!
Busby will be DESTROYED in the fall general election. You know why? She won't have ANY progressive support and most people who cared about changing things will sit on their hands in November in her district.
And personally, that's OK with me. While we need every single congressional seat we can get, this is one I'm willing to give up. If I lived in CA-50 I would run as an independent just to SHOW her how much it cost her to be spineless and/or ignorant. If we lose the house by one seat, then I will feel bad, but I'm sure somebody even madder than me will shoot a Republican congressperson in a state where the replacement would be picked by a Democrat and it would all even out.
Democrats like Busby make me sick to my stomach. They make me want to throttle something or punch out my screen when I read how her supporters (and therefore her, it always comes down from the top) think and feel. You can't be much more UN-Democratic than that.
I expect this from Republicans, but not from Democrats, who are within a sliver of losing their entire party and the last chance for Democracy with it. It's just like reading about the "Good Germans" who did nothing while Hitler came to power and then complained afterwards that they had been tricked.
Anybody know if there is a way to put another candidate on the November ballot for the CA-50?
OH, and hey, those of you in the CA-50 Coalition --- THROW HER OVERBOARD NOW! No more invites. No more free publicity. AND, ABSOLUTELY NO MORE MONEY!!!
If you are not in favor of fair elections and the counting of votes, then you are AGAINST US and you are THE ENEMY! There are no more soft spots in the middle of the road for the likes of Busby, and the standing spots for the likes of "work within the system" supporters like Bowen are going to get thinner too.
ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG I hate these people.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 10:12 am PT...
Thank you, Steve, for this peek inside the SD doings. Brad may blush at your characterizations, but I believe they are, if anything, understated!
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 12:13 pm PT...
I've posted a number of times, and have talked to Brad and folks many times over the weekend. He knows that I'm very supportive of this issue. That being said, I think we have to be careful about demonizing Francine Busby here. It's easier for many of you outside her district to "throw her away", but for us here in this district, she's the one chance we've had at getting even "adequate" representation in years here. She might not be the perfect candidate we want here, but she'd be a HUGE improvement over Cunningham or Bilbray. I've met her and talked to her on many occasions, and though she's no Donna Frye or Jeeni Criscenzo in her taking strong stances on issues as much as I'd like her to, I do believe she would be a good voice for us if she got elected. And folks like Donna and Jeeni still have yet to win in these more conservative areas of San Diego, where Busby might. I'm trying to impress on her the importance of this issue in private, but I think harsh comments shown here along with the problems with the immigration comment SNAFU before the election have her somewhat gunshy now. Does she need to be able to deal with that? Absolutely!
But I would contend that this is as much a problem of party "consultants", etc. from the DCCC, etc. as it is her problem. Had someone from the DCCC or Howard Dean himself made the same speech he made to us shortly after this election instead of waiting for Democracy Fest, it would make this issue a Democratic Party issue, and not just an issue for a single candidate to have to deal with, which makes them more vulnerable to being branded a "sore loser". Busby also faces a unique situation where she has to run against Bilbray again a few months later for the 2 year slot in November, which doesn't happen to most other candidates. Any other "mistakes" could permanently throw her out. And there are a lot of issues out there besides election fraud and immigration.
I don't think this problem is unique to Busby, though she's had the unique experience of this special election now. We are going to have MANY Democratic challengers to Republicans across the nation for congressional seats that will face the same problem in November (though a 2 year window to recover afterward instead of a few months if they lose). Many of them will also have little hardcore political experience too, and will be looking for guidance on how to stand up for proper vote counts afterward that won't permanently damage their political career aspirations too. The DCCC or other Democratic organizations that advise them with this HAVE to make this a national issue and not a local and likely misinterpreted "sore loser" issue that it will become if candidates are left on their own.
Yes, by all means stand strong with those like Crescenzo who have the courage to stand on their own on this issue. But the other half is getting someone elected. Republicans bit their tongues and still voted for Bilbray, even though many of them bitched beforehand that he wasn't conservative enough for them, and he's now unfortunately in office. I choose to still help Busby while at the same time helping in whatever way I can to make sure voting machines are handled right. If she does get elected in November, I'll remind her of these issues that are important to me (and the rest of us) and expect something back when she gets into office in exchange for my help. If I feel a cold shoulder then and someone that gives us Lieberman style actions, then I'll look for someone else in the primaries, but if she DOES listen and acts, then we've all won!
I'm agreeing with most of you on everything else, but please, take it easy on folks like Busby and other future freshman Democrats and point more of your frustration to those that are supposed to be helping them get elected.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 3:21 pm PT...
Check out Chris Hooten's Shirt
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 8:05 pm PT...
Charlie L #11
You said "I expect this from Republicans, but not from Democrats, who are within a sliver of losing their entire party and the last chance for Democracy with it."
I think they would be glad to loose you, because you have lost touch with reality.
The polls show them 3-1 favorites.
When ya gonna wake up?
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 8:07 pm PT...
Charlie L, like RLM, you still have not addressed my post #10 ...
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 8:11 pm PT...
I favor hobbits over orcs too ... however ... second breakfy is not always mandated ...
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 7/18/2006 @ 9:44 pm PT...
Mine would be negative 450,000 if I knew computer code!
Have memory card - will travel!
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 7/19/2006 @ 2:19 pm PT...
Dredd spewed: "The polls show them 3-1 favorites.
When ya gonna wake up?"
Umm the polls dont mean shit in a rigged election.
and IF all Democrats act like Busby then dont matter if they are favored by 99-1 they will still lose while the Rethuglicans laugh all the way to Congress unchallenged in a blatantly rigged election.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 7/19/2006 @ 4:17 pm PT...
"You said "like too many spineless or brainless Democrats", which is a slur."
#11 couldn't have put it better. That woman is a sellout - the guy that was defending her is too dumb to think for himself ( a common trait among staffers ) - as evidenced in his worrying about expressing his own opinion in front of someone who HE is helping. How can you be in an event such as that and not get the point?
"the immigration comment SNAFU before the election have her somewhat gunshy now. Does she need to be able to deal with that?"
When can we get some politicians with decency AND a spine? I work for a living, but if my boss is wrong - I tell him about it. I also never claim to agree with him/her even though I'll execute their wishes. We're living in a time when it doesn't cut it to be chickenshit. You are going to aggressively pursue liberty or you are wasting a seat.
If she can't stand-up for herself among the general population, what the hell is she going to do surrounded by lawyers & crooks when she gets into office? I get where you're going with it, but I don't excited about "gun-shy" in the least. How can you respect someone who doesn't even defend themselves?
P.S. Mr. Haas, May God weigh your soul - of course by the time you die you may have performed so many heartless acts that you get done like some in the movie Constantine. Enjoy yourself, because like 9/11 and Ambramoff - it'll all come out baby. In any case, at least someone is documenting your CRIMES in real-time so the Main Stream pundits will have something to steal.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 7/20/2006 @ 2:04 am PT...
I understand and do want to reward more those that do have a spine. I do have my Russell Feingold 2008 button that I wear proudly. But with the Busby/Bilbray race, what other choice do we in the 50th district have at this point? Are you just saying that we should just throw in the towell now? Those of us who live here aren't ready to do that. Now maybe if this was after the November election, we might think differently. But in this particular case, we also had the primary on the same day, and therefore have to go with who we voted for for the primary too. The Democratic Party (DCCC) is largely responsible for this mess in two ways:
1) They need to help those that are challenging for these positions to have party positions in these kind of controversial issues to stand on. I like Jeeni Crescenzo's position, but it still remains to be seen if that position will be what will help her win against Issa. And if the party were also backing her up too in what she was saying, I'd like her chances a LOT more in November to do so.
2) If you argue that the Democratic Party should have put someone else in instead of Busby as a stronger candidate, then they should have tried doing that in 2004, instead of waiting until Cunningham was out of the picture and the seat being more "open" than it was then. Noone wanted to compete in this race against Cunningham in 2004 except Busby, so in a way, we deserve what we get as an option. If they had really gone after the seat in 2004 with either helping Busby then be more polished or have someone else in that was more polished, they'd have had someone that would have been a lot more ready to stand up on their own in this race now.