Ahh, the complexities of it all.

The "fake cover up" to cover up the deeper crime, so that even if the "cover up" were uncovered, the truth would still be two layers deeper.

Only Dick Cheney on truth serum or after a few hours of water boarding will reveal what we want to know.

And never discussed (in the MSM or most of the blogosphere) are the strange lies and weird actions of the POTUS and his protective team on 9/11.

Ahhh. Well. So it goes.

Charlie L is on target. Let's all get on the wagon.... the obvious confusion during that morning by NORAD and the air traffic controllers. Why, Because several 'fake' drills which entailed the scenario's of hijackings and attacks were going on simultaneously. In fact, I have read, more on one day than ever in the history of the US. All done for the terrorists. Eh? What are the odds?

So don't get all caught up in ascribing blame at this level. Remember WHY there were all those drills going on..... on that morning.

Duh....

Go to www.scholarsfor911truth.org for clarity.

Oh, sorry, And who could have scheduled all those drills? And who benefitted from the attacks? Cui Bono, cui bono......

Re: #1; Exactly. Funny how this shit always seems to surface whenever there's a recent upsurge [or perceived as such] in talk of 'what really happened' with 9/11.

Didn't the bogus Pentagram security stills of *no plane* (!!!?) suddenly show up in correlation with a batch of semi-big/establishment names coming foward to express doubts about the "official" conspiracy theory?

I would say this is one of those events like JFK, where thirty yrs from now, people will still be yacking about it ... except WW3 will have happened long before then, and most of us, if not all, will have made our departure for the next dimension and left the Earth to the cockroaches. At least the fascists will be dead then too...

Tom Kean was quoted as saying that NORAD lied continually to his commission. "Why did they lie?" asked Kean.

Why, indeed? Is this connected to Sibel Edmonds and/or to Able Danger?

let the damage control begin. those of us in the 9/11 truth movement saw this one coming a mile away. it was just a matter of time before they knew that the movement was getting too loud and they would have to blame somebody. looks like NORAD gets to be the new fall guys. this aint gonna work. the dam is breaking and the truth wont be stopped at NORAD. incompetence? no, try inside job, and we wont stop until the whole world knows and those that REALLY funded 9/11 and made it happen are brought to justice.

Free Speech TV quoted the Zogby poll which shows Americans do not trust the government's conspiracy theory about 9/11.

A new 9/11 Commission is what a growing number of people are calling for.

And Tucker Carlson also said a new 9/11 Commission ... a real one that gets to the facts ... would be in the best interests of the nation ... even though he still can't bear to even imagine what a growing number of Americans are beginning to suspect.

Even the trolls are silent now.

You tell me if this is OT - who cleaned up after the OKCity bombing and was it the same company at WTC? And did anyone ever hear of secondary (and more) bombs at OKC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMXMo3Z0qms

The numbers just don’t add up. Is it 4 or 14 or 300 armed jets?

“Incredibly, Marr has only four armed fighters at his disposal to defend about a quarter of the continental United States. Massive cutbacks at the close of the Cold War reduced NORAD's arsenal of fighters from some 60 battle-ready jets to just 14 across the entire country. (Under different commands, the military generally maintains several hundred unarmed fighter jets for training in the continental U.S.) Only four of NORAD's planes belong to NEADS and are thus anywhere close to Manhattan—the two from Otis, now circling above the ocean off Long Island, and the two in Virginia at Langley.”

“Meanwhile, Arnold, Marr, and Nasypany were launching as many additional fighters as they could, placing some 300 armed jets in protective orbits over every major American city by the following morning.”

If there were only 4 out of 14, where did the 300 come from?

I have read many things about the Oklahoma City bombing, but I haven't done much investigating on my own. One tragedy at a time is all I can take. There are a lot of similarities tho. I've seen a few articles from witnesses that talked about the other explosions in the building and who handled the aftermath. I've also read opinion pieces that said this was when the coup of our country really took place. Like I said in an earlier thread can we believe anything that we have been taught to us since we were kids? Its really creepy. Lincoln, JFK, MLK, RFK, USS Liberty, Pearl Harbor, Oklahoma City bombing, Katrina, Its all connected from way back. What I want to know has there ever been a time when we haven't been lied to?

Hardly likely that we have ever had a period when we were not lied to. Maybe Jefferson. Maybe not even then. I, for one, will not tolerate it anymore. I will speak loudly and as often as I can against truth blockers. And, yes, there are many reports contradicting the official reports regarding OK city... including taped radio reports etc. Von Kleist and the 911 In Plane Site video may be faulted for 'pods' and the pentagon but... he has always acknowledged errors where they have occurred and his more recent 911 video has a good segment on OK city. With recordings and video. It is worth watching.

My favorite part of the snow job is that these military types WERE NOT placed under oath when they testified. Would it have really mattered? NO. Just like the Bushit administration they would have a seig heil for the agenda and then LIED THEIR ACES OFF. bASTARD testified 1 time NOT under oath how cuntvenient.

What does this newly released NORAD information mean? Well like all other bloggers who posted so far have figured out, while it actually castes more doubt on the Bushit administration/FEMA (not an investigative agency) version, the new information successfully creates a plausible smoke screen for American who have accepted the Swiss cheese commission story and or have not spent any time investigating the story about 17 arab terrrrrorrrrist who COINCIDENTLY CAUGHT U.S. AIR DEFENSE OFF GUARD (pun intended). My pet goats who still can't stomach the TRUTH> That the Bushit administration orchestrated this attack against Americans for their across the board power grab and a war effort that needed a poster boy.

This put Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, and Co. on easy street to open up the budget, endless profits for the oil barron/illuminati at the cost of our environment , bring in the war unchallenged, and shred the Constitution. The voice of reason were few and the Dixie Chicks are still having trouble selling concerts for speaking out against this murderous Fascist machine. They even spent billions of our money on electronic voting machines to keep themselves in perpetual power by fixing elections.

Once again i propose a national referendum to use paper ballots by mail. Elections of the people by the people. The Democratic party contains criminals that enabled this Bushit administration and must be purged as well. Nancy Pelozi, Hilary Clinton. People still cheer Bill Clinton because the blow job president looks pretty good compared to the mess created by these destructive greedy rusters.

Lastly, put a $5000 cap on CORPORATE CONTRIBUTION.
We can no longer allow the interest of corporations to be represented above "WE THE PEOPLE". Why can't Sybil Edmunds tell us what she knows about 9/11? Because U.S. business must be protected. Wake up Americans!!! U.S. business is OUR BUSINESS.

#9 - yes - while working in a government office in 1995, I and a few co-workers were watching a small TV carrying news reports of the OK City terrorist attack. (We were in fact concerned that our building could be a target in whatever was happening). There were live television news reports and video of what were described as unexploded bombs being removed from the building. That coupled with seismograph readings showing multiple explosives got me wondering. Back then, John Doe #2 dropping off the radar was another big clue. There's a lot of evidence out there now.
The other day I was thinking that OK City may have been something of a test run for 911 to see if they could get away with it. I would bet the two events are linked to the same group of perpetrators.

Tarpley on Malloy 8/3/06.

If there is a more fearless jock on Air America than Randi Rhodes, it's Mike Malloy. Malloy just announced that Webster Tarpley will be a guest on his program on Thursday night. Malloy airs from 10pm - 1am EST.

www.airamerica.com

In 2004, MoDo outed the fact that Rumsfeld CHANGED THE NORAD STANDING ORDERS in July 01. This after three years of denying he had any involvement.

The change, so I understand, was that for some reason NORAD was now going to have to call him personally any time they needed to put up a flight. Rather odd, since that would mean something like 400 interruptions a year, and a lot of air emergencies with delayed response.

Imagine if the fire department had to contact the governor before coming to put out a fire.

Never forget the following :

"Mineta: "During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out….and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president "do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??"

http://www.911truth.org/...?story=20050724164122860

Cheney knows all. Cheney was in control on the day.

"DO THE ORDERS STILL STAND ?"

“OF COURSE THE ORDERS STAND, HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING TO THE CONTARY ! ?”

Come on guys ,who gave those orders to "stand down" ?

#11 Laura,
You said:
"What I want to know has there ever been a time when we haven't been lied to?"

That's been my question for a long time now, too. I've come to the very disturbing conclusion that the answer is No.

With a government composed of decent, ethical people (if such a thing is even possible) I could understand the need for certain things possibly having to remain secret & classified in the interests of the country.

Unfortunately what we have are people who lie us into war & completely disregard the law & the Constitution, with absolute impunity.
They rain down death & destruction upon entire countries and neglect the welfare of their own citizens, all without a shred of accountability.
It is sickening beyond belief.

Why people find it hard to believe at this point that they could be capable of orchestrating 9/11 is truly amazing.

It's amazing that anytime a credible source of information comes out about 9-11, so many people will rush to trash it because it doesn't jibe with their hopelessly flawed and unsubstantiable theories. Inevitably, the 'flaws' they find will be themselves flawed.

Does anyone see any reason to trust Dr. Jones or Alex Jones over this Vanity Fair account? I don't. Does anyone else here recognise how clearly this account explains the timeline and the FAA/NORAD response, in a manner that DOESN'T need to assume widespread, air-tight conspiracy? Is it so difficult to accept?

Some quotes from this thread:

The numbers just don’t add up. Is it 4 or 14 or 300 armed jets?
It was 4 fighters that were scrambled during the attacks, out of 14 that were on active alert (takeoff within minutes), out of several hundred ready planes that could be launched within 24 hours. It's that simple.

let the damage control begin ... incompetence? no, try inside job

The other day I was thinking that OK City may have been something of a test run for 911 to see if they could get away with it. I would bet the two events are linked to the same group of perpetrators.
Not content to be simply impervious to the facts, certain pioneers are pushing the boundaries of conspiracy and unfounded accusation to new realms. Godspeed to you.

Why people find it hard to believe at this point that they could be capable of orchestrating 9/11 is truly amazing.
The question isn't "Are they capable?", the question is "Did they do it?". To that, the answer is almost certainly "NO". I'm capable of killing a man at almost any time, but if someone near me dies, I'd like to have the courtesy of being considered innocent until proven guilty. It's a quaint notion, I know.

"Quaint." That's it. Yeah, that's the ticket... "quaint".

For Ari: There's one big flaw in your "innocent until proven guilty" argument. Actually, two flaws.

The reason 9/11 theories are proliferating is that there has never been a full, comprehensive investigation of what happened. Thomas Kean said that NORAD lied to his committee throughout, and lamented that the committee was never able to tie the threads together.

Why so, Ari? BECAUSE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IMPEDED THE COMMITTEE'S WORK FROM BEGINNING TO END. Now you want us to give the administration the benefit of the doubt...innocent until proven guilty, you say.

I say no, a thousand times no. If you obstruct someone's investigation, you forfeit the presumption of innocence, because by doing so you create an appearance of guilt. You can't have it both ways, Ari.

The other problem with your argument is that the timeline isn't the whole story. Dr. Jones said Building # 7's collapse was the most perfect demolition he'd ever seen. Regardless of any timeline, if a building collapses without being struck by any flying object, in the manner of a controlled demolition, that demands an investigation in and of itself. What happened? Did radiated heat cause Building # 7 to implode? Of course not, because every human in the area would have been incinerated first by the same heat...but we're asked to accept that as a rationale. It's the biggest conspiracy theory of all.

I think what amazes me the most is when you watch the plane go into the tower there is not any glass or debris flying around. Just a smooth entrance,like a knife thru butter. We have all been in accidents and seen things crash it is NEVER as smoooth as butter NEVER!

Ari's back, eh???
There are many, many reasons not to believe the government tells much, if any, truth. In addition, Vanity's Fair's article is not difficult to reconcile with a MIHOP... Indeed, if I were planning a MIHOP 9/11, I would make sure that there as many pseudo attacks going on as possible. And as much confusion as possible. It is asinine to think VF's material contradicts a MIHOP.

Ari's argument is again, flawed, and representative of the troll perspective.

Here's why Ari's a shill: Ask yourself, why would someone go out of their way to argue for the politicians' (government) story that holds no water? Ari knows the facts, and the hundreds of unanswered 9/11 questions... He's not a typical kook-aid idiot, he's not stupid, but he thinks WE are... Ari knows the truth...

Ari, you are supporting the wrong side of the psychological argument.

When you want to have a belief in something "absurd" (like the "offical story" of Sept. 11, 2001), you will take -any- circumstantial evidence as "further proof" and let that TINY tid-bit erase all of the -real- questions (at least from your perspective). That is, looking at a potential "time line that explains how for the first time in our [current] history, 4 planes were allowed to be off track for over an hour", you are willing to ignore the bit about how it only takes 2 - 5 minutes for interceptors to be on a plane. We have RECENT examples of it (before and after that fateful day). Gross failures for over an HOUR, on 4 occasions, seems almost impossible.

So.. let's say that, for NORAD's part.. they -were- just being confused and incompetent (and let 3,000 people die on their watch, and allowed the single biggest disaster on U.S. soil to occur). Why were people PROMOTED? Also, how does that potential fact (which is also explained with someone "pulling strings and manipulating the situtation" that we don't yet know about) have -anytying- to do with "no damage consitent with a 757 at the Pentagon"? or "humans standing in a "super heated impact site that fatigued steel"? or "cell phones working at altatude and 400+ MPH"?... See, this "piece", on it's own, answers only a TINY question (how did the planes manage to not get shot down), it doesn't answer ANY of the dozens of other yet unanswered questions (one of the biggest for me, if the President didn't know what was going on, why wasn't he removed from a DISCLOSED LOCATION during AN ATTACK ON AMERICA??).

At the end of the day, Ary.. Your leaders have refused to "be honest and upfront" about this whole thing. You want innocence until proved guilty.. but as RLM points out, when you act guilty (for years), you don't deserve the "benefit of the doubt", you deserve an intense investigation.. if you're innocent, you have nothing to worry about, right?

Combine that with the FACT that this Administration has been flouting the law since it was installed by the courts and you have a group of people who are NOT "trust worthy" and deserve NOTHING but FULL ON INVESTIGATIONS from those paying the bills (that'd be us taxpayers).

Unless I'm missing something, Ari's argument is that NORAD was conducting exercises at the same time four planes were being hijacked...a coincidence, supposedly. And NORAD's simulations were reason enough to disable our air defense system, thus no sinister inference should be drawn from its having been disabled.

Well...how then did 19 guys with boxcutters know the coast would be clear? Are we asked to believe they just guessed right? Please! Talk about conspiracy theories! And how did those 19 guys manage to board four commercial jetliners without either causing a commotion or being listed as passengers? There were 19 separate stowaways, all had a seat on the plane, but none of the 19 were on the passenger manifest?

Perhaps Osama bin Forgotten scheduled the NORAD exercises.

Nothing to add to this conversation, except that NORAD is a TOOL, an IMPLEMENT controlled by its chain of command, NOT an autonomous entity that can be accused of negligence all on its own. Would we fault a hammer for neglecting to set a nail properly?? Hardly!!!

And Cheney was holding that hammer...

Ari,
Just to address one aspect of your #19 comment, because it concerns a comment of mine:
"...'Why people find it hard to believe at this point that they could be capable of orchestrating 9/11 is truly amazing.'
The question isn't "Are they capable?", the question is "Did they do it?". To that, the answer is almost certainly "NO"..."

I've no idea why you are so certain that the answer is "no", but you are welcome to your opinion.

As others have pointed out, however, there are alot of legitimate questions surrounding 9/11 that deserve answers. It's really as simple as that.
No amount of derision, no amount of smoke & mirrors spin, will make the questions go away.

I've found that one very common reaction people have to the question 'Did they do it?' is a reluctance to entertain even the possibility that their government could be that evil. It honestly seems preposterous to them.
Indeed, it took me a long time myself to reach the point where I could say: "Jesus, they really ARE capable of evil."

An ordinary American--raised on apple pie, red white & blue, 'we're a country of laws not of men' & 'of the people, by the people'--has to consciously cross that pretty painful threshold.

My point in comment #18 is that the people running our government have amply demonstrated their capacity for doing evil, and I don't mean just during the last five and a half years. A little research into our history reveals quite alot, much of it superlatively disturbing, & many of the faces we see now have been around for quite awhile.
I apologize for being pressed for time & not going into detail & providing links, but I know that many regulars to Bradblog know their history far better than I & none of that is news to them.

Comment #19
Ari: you did a good job of professing the good neo-con word but my question is are you taking neo-con pills or simply providing a paid for hire disinformation service? What is this neo-pill for the US masses that pharmacutical drug companies are pushing on TV commercials and will the side effects include a raging hard on? (i don't think so) Does this pill cause people to ask questions to important events and the actions of their elected government officials which in turn effect their country and their world? (i don't think so). The composit of the neo-con pill is 1/2 of the freshest bushit served up by the Bush administration propaganda machine, 1/4 solidified industrial pollution waste, and 1/4 soilent green from deaths which have a direct connection to the destructive Bushit administration since stealing the office of the White House. (This is a growing list of deaths not limited to 9/11, New Orleans, the Iraq war which includes both Iraqi civilian and US servicemen). Keep Posting your sh*t!

Here is a 17-minute radio interview from yesterday with the founder of the 9/11 Timeline web site: Randi Rhodes Interviews Paul Thompson Over Recent NORAD News. He says the article even left out some crucial comments on the fighter jets that were deployed to New York.

The full broadcasts of Randi's shows are archived here: White Rose Society. Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom to find August 2, 2006. From what I hear, she has more to say about 9/11 outside of her interview with Thompson.

The "REAL" reason mAnn Coulter attacks the 'Jersey Widows'...NOT because they are Dem/Kerry supporters!

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

Ari the shill wrote: Not content to be simply impervious to the facts, certain pioneers are pushing the boundaries of conspiracy and unfounded accusation to new realms. Godspeed to you.

Let's examine the facts:
2 terrorist events happened in the US, one on 4/19/95, the other 9/11/01

In both events, buildings were supposed to have fallen from outside forces, but the evidence in both events points to explosives inside the buildings. Don't believe me? See for yourself.
In both events, the government and media went to great lengths to supress the evidence and the testimony of eyewitnesses. As RLM said in #21, if you obstruct someone's investigation, you forfeit the presumption of innocence,

So 6.5 years apart these similar events happen, but Ari's got it all figured out - no there's no possible way they could be related. To even think that they might be related pushes boundaries to new realms.

The facts are the facts, as much as Ari (-ana Huffington) and a lot of others would like to continue to deny them. Until a theory can be proven false, it must be considered within the realm of possibilities.

Yes, poor Mr. Kean was lied to, but did he stand up and hell: "These people are lying to us. Mr. Chairman, we must swear them in and prosecute them." NO. Did he go on the talk shows THEN and say that the commission was being lied to? NO.

Nah.

Now he's trying to "refurbish" his image as an impartial. I put Kean in the same pile of crap as Powell (who uses his ex-assistant to try to clean up his image, when he could have done some good by actually standing up in summer of 2004 and resigning and telling the truth to the American people), Sandra Day O'Conner (who warns us about the creeping Fasism but conveniently forgets that she was one of the deciding votes that installed our fearless and illegal leader), Kerry complaining (now) about the election results, and others trying to "position" themselves for the future or for history.

Too f&%$ing little, too f$%#ing late.

For real deception to work it cannot be the likely conclusion to a situation, but a most unlikely conclusion, that when the world hears the unlikely, they run to the likely. Not so much because it's what they believe, more so, becuase it's what they would like to believe. And when they are all warm and settled in their toasty little beds, with their likely conclusions, the ugly head of that unlikely conclusion pops up and smiles.

Hey kids
Check out the free video downloads at www.911truthtotnes.com
i just watched PUTTING 911 IN HISTORICAL CONTEXT and TIME TO WAKE UP.
PUTTING 911 IN HISTORICAL CONTEXT shows how the Bushit administration used 911 to manipulate the American people using TERROR. The documentry gives a factual history about how the U.S. got engaged in the last few wars by creating a lie or incident to gain public outrage needed for justification of entering a war. It also give a nice backdrop on the history of the Bushit family ties to the Nazis which in fact started the Bush family nest egg.

TIME TO WAKE UP is a music video evidencing the Bushit administration who orchestrated 911 as well as evidencing the controlled demolition of the Twin Towers eventually used as the reason to aggressively attacking IRAQ for the oil as part of the neo-con agenda to bring them Democracy. Tears For Fears provides the music and this is probably the best tune they ever wrote and performed.

This could actually be the first time in history that people have the facts to prove the truth. The internet has possibly already made the case well enough that this story won't die.

There was a guy on Keith Olberman who said this discounts the conspiracy theorists. It was on TV, so it must be true. Remember, Barbara Bush says you can't trust the internet.

If I were an emergency worker, I would stay away from any "exercise" involving chemical weapons. Cheney and Rumsfeld are clever boys. Imagine how well they could have done in life if they weren't so hung up on killing people in their OWN COUNTRY.

You guys just may get away with this but keep the kool-aid handy, just in case you have to make a Hitlerian exit!

I tried to access NORAD's website but received a message "this page not available." Does anyone know if this is a permanent situation, or only temporary on account of the recent news?

Cheney or Rummy gave their internet site the order to stand down.

So much going on - where to comment, what to comment on - crap - my head is spinning and it ain't from the brandy!

Our tax dollars hard at work in Iraq!

11 Questions Avoided by the Media On NORAD Tapes

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00053.htm

Sally Hi from NZ.
mick

For Peg C. and Charlie L.: It's clear the commission went easy on NORAD. They allowed it to lie, without recourse. Was it because, as Peg suggests, NORAD was simply doing someone else's bidding under orders? Is Kean to blame for not insisting on the truth, as Charlie implies?

What we do know is that 19 suicidal terrorists with boxcutters for weapons APPARENTLY hijacked four commercial jetliners at the same exact moment when our air defenses were down to permit NORAD to conduct simulated hijackings. This fact demonstrates clearly that Condi Rice was lying when she said "Nobody could have imagined terrorists (would do what they did)." The simulations were part of a precaution against precisely that possibility. As Bush's national security adviser, she had to have known it.

But more ominously, assuming that the terrorists didn't just make the luckiest guess in history, it means that somebody leaked information about NORAD's plans to them. They knew NORAD would be on stand-down on the morning of 9/11.

The leak might have been an accident, or deliberate. In either case it would explain NORAD's lies to the commission. Covering up an accidental leak is wrong, but possibly forgivable to protect someone's reputation. Covering up a deliberate leak is treason, and the leaker is a murderer.

We're entitled to know the truth. And if history is any guide, the 9/11 widows will get it for us.

Webster Tarpley talks about this and a lot more here. Or go to "What the Blog Needs Now" thread for more information.

The decades-old procedure for a quick response by the nation’s air defense had been changed in June of 2001. Now, instead of NORAD’s military commanders being able to issue the command to launch fighter jets, approval had to be sought from the civilian Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld.

This change is extremely significant, because Mr. Rumsfeld claims to have been "out of the loop" nearly the entire morning of 9/11. He isn’t on the record as having given any orders that morning. In fact, he didn’t even go to the White House situation room; he had to walk to the window of his office in the Pentagon to see that the country’s military headquarters was in flames."
What does this mean?
Rumsfield changed the NORAD defense system and then did nothing that morning? Didn't he have a plan in effect for this type of thing since the 'decades old' NORAD procedures where now his responsibility? A Dirty Deep and Disgusting Rat Hole. If NORAD is too blame we must demand the head of the man responsible RUMSFIELD!!!

Or maybe others kept Rummy in the dark. Others, like Cheney, Bolton, Rove, et al.