Guest Blogged by John Gideon
Tonight, Dobbs reporter and stand-in Kitty Pilgrim interviews Professor Avi Rubin about his new book and about the dangers of Direct Recording Electronic voting machines.
Video in Streaming Flash format…
The video is also available on Rubin’s new blog.
The text-transcript of tonight’s segment on Lou Dobbs Tonight follows in full…
AVIEL RUBIN, AUTHOR: Good evening. PILGRIM: Aviel, you know, you point out some very, very compelling e-voting issues. And let’s just bring our viewers up to speed on some of your worries. The first one is there’s no way for voters to verify that their votes are recorded correctly. There’s no way to count the votes in a publicly viewable fashion. And meaningful recounts are impossible.
For the American voter, this does not bode well for confidence in the system. What makes you think this with such conviction?
RUBIN: Well I’m speaking here about the electronic voting machines that are being used in many places. And these are the direct recording electronic or DREs. And the problem is that these are simply computers. And they’ve been programmed by people, computer software often has bugs in it. And it’s almost the ideal platform for somebody who wants to rig the election or tamper with the election in some undetectable fashion.
Now the problem is that when a voter goes up to one of these machines and votes and makes their choices, when they leave the polls, they have no idea how that machine recorded the votes that they cast inside of it. There’s no way for them, for example, to have confidence that the data that’s now inside of that voting machine corresponds to how they voted.
Worse, if the election becomes controversial or if it’s very close and a recount is needed and many states actually have laws giving the candidates the right to have a recount, there’s no way to get an independent count of those votes.
If you ask a computer to add a bunch of number, it will give you a particular result. And even if you ask it to do that 100 more times if the data is incorrect or corrupted, it is going to give you that same incorrect result. So that’s one of my primary concerns.
PILGRIM: You know, and recounts are not unusual in elections if there’s a particularly close election. Let’s go to some other points that you make. And this is about the security of the machines. Your basic problem is that the machines must be trusted not to fail. And you say in the Diebold machines we found gross design and programming errors. And we cannot determine the quality of vendors’ machines because their code is proprietary.
I know you have vast expertise in this area, especially in checking the security of these machines. Tell us why you’re really concerned about the design of these machines at this result?
RUBIN: Well, everybody who has worked in the software field knows that software’s very complex and very difficult to get right. So when you’re building something like a voting machine, in the case, for example, of the Diebold voting machine, which my research team examined, it was 50,000 lines of C++ code. There’s a lot of room for error there. And it’s really crucial that that software be designed using formal software engineering processes.
And the software that we looked at from the Diebold voting machine was really poorly written. We found all kinds of security errors that I outline in the book and the use of cryptography for example, that’s used to encrypt information on the machine was using outdated and broken ciphers.
And so I’m very concerned in the first hand that we’re even using this kind of technology, but furthermore, I’m concerned with the fact that we’re taking the plunge and using it, we’re not even using well designed systems.
PILGRIM: Now, some states, in fact, 27 states have instituted laws or mandates that a paper trail be available on a vote so that people can check if the machines record it properly. But other states have not. There are many court cases that now take on this issue. And let’s listen to a sound bite from one of the plaintiff attorneys in one of these cases. This is what he says about what’s going on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOWELL FINDLEY, PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Sometimes litigation is the only way to get the attention of the officials and, in the end, sometimes the only way that the change can be brought about, by asking a judge to order it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now Aviel, we’ve looked at some very flawed elections and controversial elections in Georgia, Maryland and Ohio and other places around the country. Is litigation the way to go? Why are not state officials re-examining their decision to purchase these machines?
RUBIN: I think we have to attack this from all angles. And in the short term I’ve supported some of this litigation. I believe that when the election officials are not responding to what the security experts are saying, litigation might be the only way. I think in the long term it has to be through legislation.
I think that we need laws that will require us to have transparent systems where the votes can be publicly observed, the vote counting can be publicly observed and recounts are possible. But if we’re not going to have legislation like we don’t have in my state of Maryland, then I think for the public to bring lawsuits challenging the use of these machines is not only reasonable, but I think it’s the right thing to do.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Aviel Rubin, author of “Brave New Ballot: The Battle to Safeguard Democracy in the Age of Electronic Voting.” Thanks very much for being with us Aviel.
RUBIN: Thanks a lot, Kitty.
Thank you John for this thread. i believe it was Maryland where the governor and the state House of representives appropriated money to allow for a paper ballot trail for their e voting machines until some NEO-CON beoch tied in with DIEBOLD took matters in her own hands. She then went on to explain some BUSHIT excuse to the people living in the FASCIST commonwealth why their sellout state senate killed a safeguard which could evidence who won an election with more certainty than a system based on FAITH.
Diebold hackable voting machines, in which 1 person can steal an election undetected, is a company run by convicted felons. On the home front, this is Bushit administration DEMOCRACY at it’s finest. Americans can expect to get bend over and raped by these criminal lying murdererous neo-cons perpetuating their power at the polls in every state election without a verifiable paper trail. This gives NEO-CONS the total control they planned to achieve when they sold these machines to U.S. taxpayers as part of their agenda.
Am new to Bradblog. Just wondering if there are any organized efforts afoot to encourage absentee voting in areas using the paperless machines. I live in Leon County Florida, home of Ion Sancho a thorn in Diebold’s side. We use optical scanners but the state and Diebold tried to strong arm Sancho when he sought independent testing of machines for handicapped voters. Where the law is not prohibitive it would seem absentee voting could have the supervisors of elections rethinking cost benefits if large nos. of voters requested the paper recorded absentee ballots.
Go here http://www.electiondefenseaction.org
and here http://www.electiondefensealliance.org
…to get active
We need coordinators across the country. Just voting or GOTVing (whether absentee or not) or getting others to do it is not enough.
We need to insist that the votes are counted in the open or declare no confidence. So unfortunately there is a lot more work to do than just voting.
Thanks for coming to Bradblog and welcome! Don’t mind this gloomy, unreadable dark green. It’s a guy thing or whatever. (The Bradblog seriously needs a woman’s touch!) But until then, just pretend you’re visiting your brother’s apartment at college.
Hey. Some of us don’t mind the color green.
Latest Zogby Poll shows 92% want a transparency vote !!! That is wonderful news that people are listening and will demand a change. I can’t even imagine what the 6% who do not think we need transparency are thinking and of course the usual 2% who care less.
As an avid watcher of Lou Dobbs it is good to see almost daily reporting on the e-vote debacle. Of course trying to get lawmakers interested thats like talking to a two year old.
I’m not familiar with Russel Shaw, but his recent piece, ‘”Ohio Was Stolen” Crowd, Pay Heed To Tom Hayden’, which I stumbled upon at HuffingtonPost, is less than helpful.
He cites an admonition from Tom Hayden about the importance of the upcoming elections, which he interprets thusly:
“…What Tom is saying is, when you take your “fantasy-based,” “Ohio was stolen” opinions to the public square, and demonize anyone who asks for confirmational clarity, you run the risk that millions of voters who we all need to come down on our side this time will tune you out. Why? Because, frankly, the most shrill of you who are absolutely convinced that Ohio was stolen sound like sore losers, pundits with agendas, wack jobs, or some sort of combination of all of the above…”
I get the impression that Mr. Shaw is unfamiliar with RFK Jr, Lou Dobbs, the Bradblog and many other relevant things.
link
{Ed Note: Comment removed. Disinformation.}
Pastor Willie – what are you talking about? It’s not clear, at least it doesn’t make any sense to me. Are you saying that Clint Curtis should be barred from running because he wrote a program that could change votes? Pleeeeease? He wrote a sample program at the request Congressman Feeney. He is now running against Feeney because he discovered that the program may have been used fraudulently by Feeney and others. The program itself is not fraudulent – its use in an election is.
If you get confused over simple facts like that and many others related to Feeney then you should not be surprised that anyone with a scrap of intelligence will dismiss everything you say. That means most of us posting here at Bradblog.
{Ed Note: Comment removed. Disinformation.}
Absentee ballots and provisional ballots are another tool of the Repuglican* thugs to steal elections. THEY NEVER GET COUNTED. They are simply REMOVED FROM THE SYSTEM. Yes, THEORETICALLY, if the total number of absentee ballots was greater than the total number of cast ballots, they MIGHT be counted, but don’t bet on it.
We would need a candidate to actually DEMAND that the votes be counted; not a Kerry, not a Hackett, not a Busby, but a REAL candidate who cared more about the integrity of the election than their own personal political future and who was educated about the multiple mechanisms that the Repugnicans* use to subvert the electoral process.
The counting has been completed for 2006 and surprisingly, the Repuglicans have won many surprise “come from behind” victories to hold both houses of Congress. Now all that is left is for the American people to cast their ballots and then accept the results of the “amazingly trouble-free” election as reported by the corporate-controlled and Repuglican-spin-dominated mass media.
Or, as an alternative, people who see their local election decided other than the pre-election and exit polls indicate it should have been could choose to GO UKRAINIAN on their government and go to the streets and demand OPEN VOTING and OPEN COUNTING.
Charlie L
*P.S. I tried to stay above the fray of name-calling, but the President of the United States yesterday referred to the Democratic Party as the “Democrat Party” and that was the last straw. This is not a “slip of the tongue” but a well-documented strategy based on consumer research and designed to disparage the Party of Jefferson. Screw the Repuglicans — they are Repugnant and as ugly as pugs.
Hi Joan, Glad to see you back.
Hey, how can we get the actual video clip and not just the written transcript?
Didn’t we used to have the videos at one time?
I’m on Medicare, and I can share some of my experiences regarding the Republican Medicare Prescription Plan. Not only, was this plan written to be complex and confusing, but a threat of a fine being deducted from our monthly income was was in place. We had to make these decisions in a limited time, a dead line set by the “plan” I was not given enough time to reshearch or understand what was happening and had to ask my doctor for advice. I made a costly mistake, one I couldn’t afford, and chose a plan with no deductible, only to find that it did not cover all of my medication. So, I’m locked in to a “plan” for a year, where I pay monthly premiums, and the cost of some drugs. I can’t afford it.Can someone tell me what the big hurry was?
{Ed Note: Comment removed. Disinformation.}
This is now posted at Crooks and Liars.com. http://movies.crooksandliars.co...-Democracy.mov
I want to comment about “Mr. Fisher” and about absentee ballots. I have experience with both.
Last week I held a fundraiser for Clint Curtis. We (the organizers) received a mysterious phone call from a “Mr. Fisher.” He believes AIPAC is behind the election fraud. However,what really made me question Mr. Fisher’s wild information was that he believes that he should be Al Gore’s running mate in 2008.
About absentee ballots, King County, WA, one of the country’s most populated counties, is planning on moving to all mail voting. I am not in favor of this move. In 2005, 5% of the absentee ballots were not counted due to “unrecoverable error” which includes damaged ballots, and I think ballots with no signature and I am not sure what else. 5% is a lot of ballots. This number does not include votes that are not counted because of overvotes and undervotes. Absentee ballots identify precincts, and in states where a voter must identify him or herself as a Democrat, there is ample opportunity for such ballots to disappear prior to being counted. Absentee ballots are a good alternative to paperless touchscreen voting, or any touchsreen voting, but it is not a good alternative to poll site voting with reliable voting equipment.
Furthermore, all vote by mail or absentee voting on demand, eliminates one of the best checks and balances to stolen elections — exit polling. If all vote by mail becomes the popular alternative to e-voting, or as an avoidance mechanism to complex procedures for poll site voting, we will be no better off.
Nana (#13): I am sorry for your plight. The reason the bill had to be rushed through in the middle of the night with kept-open-longer-than-normal voting, arm-twisting, threats, and perhaps even outright felonious bribery was that there were literally BILLIONS of dollars in giveaways to large pharmaceutical corporations built into the bill. Passage of this boondoggle and rip-off was a promise made by corrupt Republicans (and even a few DINOs) in return for massive campaign contributions.
To put it bluntly (but absolutely not personally) Nana: You’ve been had!
Oh, and a major player in the screwing of you and every other senior on the plan was an organization you may have heard of: AARP. They helped write the plan, they helped lobby for it, and they are going to make hundreds of millions off it. NOW, of course, as seniors like you are realizing how screwed you are, AARP is backing off and lying about their involvement.
You still a member of AARP? Quit now and tell all your senior friends to do the same. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Charlie L
Hi, Laura. Nice to know someone noticed my absence! 🙂
Thanks for the info Charlie L. I’ll cancel the AARP right now, I wasn’t aware of that, and will spread the word. As for being had, I kinda guessed that, and they would probably do it to their own mothers.Don’t know how they sleep at night.
Joan, actually other people had noticed on previous threads. Now I’m just wondering if Dredd will be back. It got a little heated a few days back and I haven’t seen him back on. Something about rules.