READER COMMENTS ON
"The Swift-Boating Of Andres Manuel Lopez-Obrador Has Begun"
(24 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 12:43 pm PT...
If Obrador is so marginalized even by his own party then why did they take over the congress so Vincente Fox couldn't give his state of the year address? HMMMMMMMMMMM How Come? Thanks WP This leads to our own Democracy and we need to stay on top of it. Of course the media is smearing him thats what they do best!
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 1:07 pm PT...
I just hope that I live to see the day that we can shove it in the face of the Swift-boaters, Appeasers and just plain criminals that have given us the mess we currently find ourselves in!
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
THE UNAPOLOGETIC MEXICAN
said on 9/5/2006 @ 1:50 pm PT...
Oh jeez, they keep pushing these memes "People getting tired of camping in the Zócalo," "Obrador hated," blah blah. Whatever. As if the press has much credibility in these areas. They are trying to hypnotize everyone. "You love Coca Cola. It is the Real Thing."
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 2:04 pm PT...
I am a Mexican citizen and what happened here its very similar to the smear campaign they used in the US against John Kerry, except that Mexico is a country with a long history of electoral fraud and a sell-out judicial system.
This is a day of mourning for Mexican democracy, with only two democratically elected presidents in the last 100 years: Francisco I Madero and Vicente Fox, the man who forgot his democratic origin to betray the country and impose his buddy in the presidency.
Dick Morris was one of Calderon's consultants and the promoter of the Goebbelian slogan "Lopez Obrador is a danger to Mexico". This prostitute has obviously no regret after leaving this country torn in hate.
The strategy of fear and the smear campaign against Lopez Obrador has been followed by US mainstream media, whose interest in Mexican democracy is non-existent. Fox News, Miami Herald, Washington Times and Dallas Morning News have been the most enthusiatic fearmongers.
They may lie all they want to their audiences. They will have to acknowledge sooner or later that demonizing Lopez Obrador will not erase the enormous grievances that have over 15 million mexicans supporting him.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 2:57 pm PT...
The media is the master!
As long as people watch the media (few read it any more) we will be the victims of it. Here. Mexico. Anywhere.
KILL YOUR TELEVISION!!!
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
Paul in LA
said on 9/5/2006 @ 3:11 pm PT...
This isn't really 'Swiftboating,' which in the initial instance referred to attacks on the reality of a political candidate's military service, and the use of viral media to promote an attack on their actions in the military that cannot be easily falsified (since it is based on hearsay, and events that took place in combat).
Leftists and other alternative political figures have been demonized forever. The media used is not viral, the claims are falsifiable, and regrettably the demonized figure has usually helped their opposition by providing documented (or reputed) evidence of the 'demonic' character.
In the case at hand, Obrador has been reputed to say that he would never support the Calderon presidency. This statement is a purist announcement that radicalizes followers, but hands hot propaganda to the opposition. He refuses to play by the 'rules' --- he refuses to yield when 'defeated,' albeit through devious means.
Fear of such demonization is part of what makes Dems look overly-compliant with fraud. It is also dangerous, because it suggests sedition as a reasonable course for polticial figures.
Worse, Obrador is reported to have said that he would set up an alternative government! That is a very stupid thing to say, however much it represents a noble political effort. Parallel government is WIDE OPEN to charges of sedition. By making such statements (or similar statements which can be translated that way), Obrador probably did damage his support outside his immediate activist gathering.
Leftists here have echoed these statements, suggesting that burning bridges and 'paths of no return' are the necessary stances for political change in conditions of fraud and tyranny. Such perspectives generally fail to accept the actual power structure weighed against them, and so there is clinging to supposed past historical events which are supposed to have worked out, once conventional politics are defined as 'appeasement.'
From that point on, it's the wilderness or victory. Leftist leaders also commonly suggest that bloodshed is the cost of freedom, which further radicalizes the followers. Any efforts at conventional politics is shunned --- even voting rights efforts, in fully radicalized movements. And the radicalization usually requires demonizing sitting politicians in return --- all wrapped in a cocoon of righteousness.
I hope Obrador can convert his popular movement into a sober activist movement to promote Mexico's democratic higher ideals, piece by piece, and I hope he learns to avoid feeding the opposition and helping them to demonize him. Most of all, I hope that the radicalization does not extend to the point of bloodshed --- because the situation is very dangerous, and the (Mexican & US) power backing up the corrupt politics he is heroically opposiing is, in fact, considerable.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
Paul in LA
said on 9/5/2006 @ 3:22 pm PT...
"KILL YOUR TELEVISION!!!"
Just buy TiVo, and get a satellite dish. I watch Democracy Now! on LinkTV every day. Spike Lee's "The Day the Levees Broke" documentary was on HBO. C-SPAN showed a 1-1/2 hour show on the causes for impeachment of Bushco last week. There is quite a bit on television that is worth watching.
It doesn't much matter what people see on television, if they do not know who, for instance, the sitting Secretary of State is, or the names of the other countries in the hemisphere, or other gross ignorances.
Blaming the technology is otherwise known as Ludditism. The Unabomb terrorist was a Luddite. And attempting to avoid the technology is an age-old effort --- consider the case of the Amish.
Blaming Americans for being stupid is simpler, and somewhat more accurate. There are certainly a great number of stupid human beings, worldwide --- but their tv sets are only a symptom of that disease, not the cause.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 3:34 pm PT...
Paul in LA
It really seems to me that you are having difficulty coping with reality. Looks to me as if you see the frightening stuff the same as the rest of us but are burning out your brain cells in an effort to bury the cowardice it harks up in your breast. I have a friend who suffered similarly, and Zoloft is working very well for him. I'M NOT PUTTING YOU DOWN. I genuinely see evidence of great pain driving your stubborn manufacture of all these flimsy excuses you're posting all over the Mexico threads. You are not listening to reason or heeding anyone else's input, but continue with this stuff. Seek help, or try to work it off on long walks --- do something to settle the inner conflict before you explode. Posting here is not doing the trick.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 4:05 pm PT...
This is a message to Paul in LA (first my full agreement with the previous post by Agent99). Obviously you are not very familiar with Mexican political history. Turns out the 2000 election was the first time an opposition candidate was "permitted" to win the presidency. What we are experiencing here is an authoritarian regression and nothing less.
For many decades the PAN, the current ruling party, performed the same stunts as the PRD with mixed results to push for liberalization. Now they are behaving exactly like the PRI and have promoted a "state election" where other parties had no chance of defeating the official candidate. The PAN blocked highways, airports and blackmailed the government to open up the political space. Not one step towards democratization in Mexico has been achieved without a fight.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 4:15 pm PT...
Could it be that the MSM is trying out story lines to see which work in order to have them ready come November?
When you break it down it's all just the "sore loser" syndrome again. Only now it's "His supporters are turning their backs because he's a Sore Loser.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
Paul in LA
said on 9/5/2006 @ 4:37 pm PT...
That's hilarious, Agent99. You want to drug activists? Get a job with the NSA.
Brenda, it is clear that activism is needed to change things in Mexico, or anywhere. My comments have been based on the recognition that the ONLY changes that are coming there will come through progresssive POLITICS over the long haul.
ANY effort at revolution will bring a US invasion as sure as you're born. Unless you factor that in, it is YOU who do not know Mexico's history.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 5:28 pm PT...
Be ready for the sore loser syndrome as neo-cons in the US will apply to Democrats once they steal November elections after smear campaigns and the promotion of fear and hate.
No Paul, we do not fear an invasion. The last military intervention from the US almost a hundred years ago, in the midst of our Revolution. Have you witnessed lately any US military interventions to fight social change in Latin America lately? Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia...
We are quite ready to fight for our democracy even if that is distasteful to some pundits in US media. This would not be the first time we have to gather all efforts towards change.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 6:40 pm PT...
BradBlog - All Mexico, all the time -
It may come to that if things proceed in a predictable fashion. Steal an election, arouse public ire and then claim that you're going to compromise. Actually Bush put out the compromise card before the controversy; he wanted a "humble" foreign policy.
The Mexican people, those in wretched poverty, understand what's going on. They're being "schmoozed" by Calderon, who is actually acknowledging poverty and problems. It's interesting that Bloomberg doesn't describe any of these.
Why not? Because Mexico is one of the big prizes in international exploitation - labor, resources, and more. The world does with its "stripdown" of anything it can get its hands on.
Oil will run out at some point, there are zones of pollution that are horrifying and may make areas uninhabitable, and the vote count is corrupt.
If Calderon were an honest politician and a gentleman, he would insist on a recount. Instead he behaves in a way that inspires the people to say: We do not consent
Great blogging Winter Patriot...
Implications of Mexican action for voting rights in the USA.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 6:43 pm PT...
I much prefer hilarity to hysteria, Paul, and can you get me a job at the NSA? I really think I could accomplish a lot of good things there! Much more effective than breaking out in a cold sweat while holding a sign.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 7:12 pm PT...
Really Paul, a US invasion? Great! Let’s bring it on. You mean the US Marines will land at Veracruz and march up to the halls of Montezuma and stuff? I can’t think of a better way to get fifteen million Mexicans lining up to join the Revolutionary Army. And I can’t think of a better way to encourage some serious international organizing with progressives in both countries working together. Wouldn’t the ruling classes love that? Who knows, America might even wake up then too. And Chavez will just sit and watch? I really don’t think even the neocons are that stupid but I hope they are.
Tell me Paul, when does it become pointless to work within the existing system? Do you think going through the political process in Nazi Germany would have saved the Jews? How do you decide? Or is this knee jerk belief in the existing system, no matter what, just an act of faith? Frankly, I think it is way past time to get serious about some alternatives in the US as well as in Mexico. Where have you been? I think the idea of an alternative government is quite beautiful. I am going to be watching closely and learning.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 7:52 pm PT...
#15 --- That's a perfect moniker, General Scott. It got a laugh from me.
You're right, too. I don't know what's wrong with Paul. He reaches so far for...what? Maybe he's your basic contrarian (like my brother-in-law. What a PITA.)(Television only a symptom? Do a little Google search on the psychological effects of commercial television. And there are legions of marketers who would smile at such naivete. Not to say there aren't people trying to make television into something good. BTW, the Luddites were trying to fight the destruction of their way of life and community. I've always had great respect for their tragic cause.)
An invasion of Mexico? Yes, General Scott, wouldn't that give global progressivism the jolt it needs? (And probably it would provide the neocons with a lesson greatly needed.) Invading Mexico is not like invading Granada or Panama, Paul.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
Paul in LA
said on 9/5/2006 @ 8:24 pm PT...
Brenda said "No Paul, we do not fear an invasion. The last military intervention from the US almost a hundred years ago, in the midst of our Revolution."
My point is that the US has invaded Mexico before, and under Bush, would readily prop up the rightwing gov't that the Bushco vote-fraud just put into power. Don't confuse GFH Bush for Woodrow Wilson.
" Have you witnessed lately any US military interventions to fight social change in Latin America lately? Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia…"
The Bushco plans for S America are fairly well-known. They have repositioned Southern Command; they are readying plans to invade Cuba when Castro goes; they are well-established in Colombia under Uribe, and they are massing troops and materiel on the Bolivian border.
"We are quite ready to fight for our democracy"
If the US troops are currently guarding the Pemex plants as we have been told, they are already on your soil. My point from the beginning has been to note that you are not just struggling with Calderon, or a purely Mexican matter. You are running the risk of bringing a US military presence into your country. A greater concern, though, is a direct encounter with the Mexican military.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
Paul in LA
said on 9/5/2006 @ 8:36 pm PT...
Agent99 said "breaking out in a cold sweat while holding a sign."
Oh good --- ridicule of protesters too! HOW progressive.
"Really Paul, a US invasion? Great! Let’s bring it on. You mean the US Marines will land at Veracruz and march up to the halls of Montezuma and stuff?"
You ever hear of helicopters? It could happen. It is certain to happen if there was an outright civil war in Mexico, or an attempt at coup d'tat.
"I can’t think of a better way to get fifteen million Mexicans lining up to join the Revolutionary Army."
The Revolutionary Army. Wow, that sounds like a fierce bunch. How soon will you have the stationery printed?
"And I can’t think of a better way to encourage some serious international organizing with progressives in both countries working together."
And here is where the actual thinking of the leftist comes out. A bloodbath would be an organizing move!
"And Chavez will just sit and watch? I really don’t think even the neocons are that stupid but I hope they are."
Your idea that the Chavez gov't is impervious is also absurd. After Bushco goes lame duck --- all bets are off viz-a-viz Vz. If you aren't worried for Chavez, then you sleep better than I do.
"Do you think going through the political process in Nazi Germany would have saved the Jews?"
There WAS NO political process in Nazi Germany.
"Where have you been? I think the idea of an alternative government is quite beautiful. I am going to be watching closely and learning."
G'head. It's a dumb move, inviting repression. You welcome that --- that's what I've been arguing with since the start of these threads, so thanks for providing another example.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 9/5/2006 @ 8:44 pm PT...
Paul said: "My comments have been based on the recognition that the ONLY changes that are coming there will come through progresssive POLITICS over the long haul."
Studied the American Revolution lately, Paul?
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 9/6/2006 @ 1:32 am PT...
The bu$$h White House welcomes Mexico's newly "elected President" Felipe Calderon into the Union of Fascist States of North America.
The White House, in a statement, congratulated the people of Mexico on the certification of a ``free and fair electoral process.''
``We congratulate Felipe Calderon on his victory and look forward to working with him and his team,'' the statement said, adding that the United States expects its relationship with Mexico to continue to be productive for both countries.
UK Guardian Article
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 9/6/2006 @ 2:19 am PT...
Paul said: “And here is where the actual thinking of the leftist comes out. A bloodbath would be an organizing move!” Hey, I’m not the one advocating an invasion or a blood bath. Of course I do not welcome a violent confrontation. Of course I do not advocate the killing of thousands of people as an organizing move. But if it happened Bush would lose. That’s why he won’t do it and your invasion scare story is ridiculous. Get it? Am I getting a whiff of some Rethuglican style spin here or what? Sorry Paul but the “you lefties welcome war and killing” shit is a red herring that does not add anything to the discussion.
Your response ignored the most important part of my post. Again, when does it become pointless to work within the existing system? How do you decide? Or is your knee jerk belief in the existing system, no matter what, just an act of faith? Or maybe you are just trying to score social points by wagging fingers at crazy leftists and kumbaya hippies. You just look oh-so-reasonable and responsibly “centrist” that way, huh? I suspect you will keep this up long after it becomes insanity. If you are interested in a substantive discussion then give me a serious answer here. The “There was no political process in Nazi Germany” is cute but it doesn’t cut it.
Year after year after year since 1980, we have had to listen to people like you give us a thousand reasons why we could not act or we would risk disaster. For the last 25 years the Democratic Party has played it your way doing everything possible to avoid confrontation or risk a crisis. Well we are now one fake terror attack from a full blown fascist state. Your attitude hasn’t kept us very safe now has it? I ain’t buyin’ it any more. It doesn’t look like the Mexican people are either. The more people in the streets, the less the likelihood of violence. You are quite right. This is not just a Mexican matter. This is the southern front in a North American class war. The big battles are yet to come. If you want it to get really violent just keep your head in the sand.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 9/6/2006 @ 10:17 am PT...
Paul in LA: It would be nice if you would acknowledge other points of view. I realize that people often aren't polite. But I am politely telling you that I find your wooden, dogged refusal to acknowledge that the other fellow might have a point is annoying. I would also remind you that brevity is the soul of wit and the salvation of scroll wheels.
Brenda, the last American invasion of Mexico didn't work out very well, did it? American troops being stoned by children and the cadets of Chapultepec holding off the flower of the American army to the death. The invasion may have gotten the US the northern Sonoran desert, but at the cost of a hundred years of a weeping sore.
Michael Collins: the big pinata is the privatization of Pemex. Electricity and Seguridad Social are also ripe fruit.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 9/6/2006 @ 11:29 am PT...
“The big pinata is the privatization of Pemex. Electricity and Seguridad Social are also ripe fruit”
Thanks, if is all Mexico here all the time, I hope you post this comment every day.
I hope I will always be polite to people who want to solve problems and have a serious exchange of views. I would really like to hear where Paul draws the line here. That discussion won’t happen, of course, but his troll-like attitude serves a purpose. It has a lot of people talking to each other.
“We are quite ready to fight for our democracy even if that is distasteful to some pundits in US media. This would not be the first time we have to gather all efforts towards change”.
Oh, how I hope your spirit spills over the border, before it is too late for us all.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 11/26/2006 @ 10:10 pm PT...