Awesome! But does this still mean Omniscan are in the mix? They're still riggable.

Don't we still have to do away with the law that says that the Florida paper ballots, once fed thru Omniscan, are no longer the official "recounted" vote, since the Electronic Vote Tabulation would be the final "official" vote? Please help me understand!

Thanks to all that have helped!

Go Clint!
www.clintcurtis.com

Brad, I listen to you frequently on KRXA. Your work on this issue has been epic. You've done more for this country than most of the politicians in either party.

Thank you.

Great news! The Dems just won 2008.

AMAZING NEWS! It's Greek Easter in my Panties! This makes coming out of a six-year depression FINALLY worthwhile. (I was beginning to have my doubts.)

And yes, I believe Julie (#1) is right. We will still have to work to adjust Florida's recount/election certification laws, but (forgive my chirpy naiveté) compared to the paper ballot battle, the threat of paperless DRE implementation statewide, corrupt vendors skulking behind questionable rule of law, dubious local election officials and their skeevey lawyers obstructing the public counting of the votes--that should be doable. Unless I'm missing something. I must be missing something. Am I missing something?...

Hefty Bags of respect to all of you who have carried this fight, triple-loaded, for the best of the sleeping rest of 'em . Thank you.

http://www.geocities.com...lFAQResponse.htm#Florida

Bush won Florida by 368,000 votes. The following analysis indicates that Kerry won by 221,000. That's a 589,000 turnaround, or 7% of the 7.3mm total recorded vote. The Democrats had a 40.9- 36.8% registration advantage in Touch Screen (TS) machine counties; it was 41.9-39.0% in Optical Scan (OS) counties. Kerry won TS counties by 51-47%; Bush won OS counties by a whopping 57-42%. Keep in mind that voter registration statistics are consistent across TS and OS counties, so we are not comparing apples and oranges.

Brad, does Florida have one e-vote company across the board, or different e-vote machines in different districts (ES&S, DIEBOLD, etc...)?

But optiscans can be rigged at the central tabulator!
We need a very robust random audit of at least 10%, regardless of the recored vote margin!

http://www.geocities.com...lFAQResponse.htm#Florida

Bush won Florida by 368,000 votes. The following analysis indicates that Kerry won by 221,000. That's a 589,000 turnaround, or 7% of the 7.3mm total recorded vote. The Democrats had a 40.9- 36.8% registration advantage in Touch Screen (TS) machine counties; it was 41.9-39.0% in Optical Scan (OS) counties. Kerry won TS counties by 51-47%; Bush won OS counties by a whopping 57-42%. Keep in mind that voter registration statistics are consistent across TS and OS counties, so we are not comparing apples and oranges.

Quick answers to as much of the above as I can offer (quickly):

JuliePatchouli: Don't know who makes Ominscan, but it's probably still in. As might be the law that disallows human count after a machine count has already happened. Though the new law has a 1% audit component (as woeful as that is). So there's still much more work to do down there. But at least there's something to count now.

Obsessed: Thanks backatcha. Glad you've been listening. Happy I haven't bored ya (will be with Peter B. on Thom Hartmann tomorrow morning at 11:30am btw)

Jeanie Dean from District 13: Yes, you may be missing something. It's still Florida. And democracy will only come to those who choose to own it themselves. You, of course, know that as well as anybody. So I change my answer. You're not missing anything

TIA: Yup. Dittoing myself on all of the above. Thanks for the fresh reminders.

Big Dan: Several different state approved vendors to choose from. Likely more on the way.

Beware of thinking that optical scan must be good. I don't know the full details yet, but there was something on the radio at home this morning just as I was leaving for work, but there are problems with some of yesterday's local elections in Scotland. I'm not from Scotland by the way, I'm from London, and I refuse to vote in any elections, so I'm impartial. As I understand it, some voters had to vote in two elections, one in the traditional 'first past the post, way by marking a cross next to the name of the chosen candidate, and the other by writing a number next to the names of several candidates, in order of choice. Obviously, some voters did it the wrong way round, and put crosses where they should have put numbers etc. Haven't we heard of confusing ballot papers elsewhere?

It seems that there were also problems with some sort of new 'automated counting system', which I assume must be some sort of optical scan system, since the votes are marked on papers. What I heard on the radio was that the votes were counted correctly, but the system has had problems collating the totals and producing a final result. What's wrong with counting them manually, which has worked perfectly well in the past?

You can conduct an election badly by any means you may choose; no technology is immune to that.

Actual movement on the 18,000 votes front! Interesting!

This is still a HUGE victory attributable to hard working regular old people in a democracy. Even though there is still much work to do, there is hope more and more regular old people will start to actively participate. Has anybody seen any MSM coverage on this, surely something to peak the sheeple's interest?

Congratulations to the republican governor and legislature of Florida.

It is fitting that it happen at ground zero of this 2000-2007 reign of corruption. Otherwise this would be the banner of the day:

“The recipe for perpetual ignorance is to be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.” Albert Hubbard

As it stands now, Florida has set a course for better elections. It signals a serious change of course, and offers hope for the future of elections in that state.

Now it is up to election officials to continue the progress and insure proper clarity, storage, open counts, and open government during the entire election process.

Hopefully the primaries or the next election will prove the case.

PS: Yes, optical scan machines can be hacked. Any system they are attached to can be hacked if it has remote communication capability, or we can't see the source code to know what it is doing.

A black box system with remote communication, even if it also uses white paper ballots is still a hackable black box system.

I think it is unfair, since "the Florida House today unanimously passed" the bill, to infer democrats are against it or are against paper ballots.

If it was unanimous that means all democrats voted for it.

Brad, you would be more fair to say it was a bi-partisan unanimous vote.

{Ed Note: You are right, Dredd. I've tweaked the text of the original story to try and clarify that point a bit better. It's the Dems in the U.S. Congress that are dragging their feet, while the Dems down in Florida, thankfully, did the right thing. Thanks for the push. --- BF}

Congratulations to all those who have worked on this issue of bringing democracy back to our democracy. I just sent this article to my governor, Eliot Spitzer as they are considering e-vote machines for the next election. Actually, many have spoken out against them which is why we haven't gotten new machines yet. I hope they don't make any hasty decisions. I told my neighbor that if they did get them, I'd be out front of my polling place with a sign to not use them. I won't.

This banner that came up when I logged on to Bradblog:

"The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin

Stalin, being BC (Before Computers), used paper ballots.

But that is not the end of the matter, as he himself pointed out, because casting a vote is not dispositive of the matter. It is the counting of the votes that is dispositive and the real character of a system.

In the 2000 election Florida had paper ballots. That still led to Bush v Gore, and since then has led to Bush v The 2006 election People's Congress.

Hence we can say that Stalin with paper ballots and Florida with paper ballots is not the deciding essence, not the end of the matter.

In 2000 Florida also had, in addition to paper ballots, Katherine Harris as Secretary of State, and as republican campaign operative ... shades of Ken Blackwell in Ohio.

Don't get me wrong, this new Florda law is a change of course into a better direction. But election nirvana is still all about the counting not the casting.

Scanning paper ballot data into a system that has black box software we can't see, remote communication, and a partisan head of elections is still a Stalinist faith based system.

The S 559 bill in the US Senate, which comes from Florida Senator Nelson, outlaws the Ken Blackwell / Katherine Harris syndrome, outlaws communication devices attached to the system, outlaws black box source code, and makes the system lawful only if the souce code is available for public scrutiny.

Public eyes on the source code, no communication devices, and no partisan politics in the election, are the real high ground IMO.

"It's Greek Easter in my Panties!" (but is everyone invited?)

Fla. Gov. Crist has turned out to be that rarest of creatures - a Republicant with some integrity... I didn't vote for him, but I'd consider it next time around...

... Dredd... Enough with the Holt II "talking points".

"... outlaws the Ken Blackwell / Katherine Harris syndrome"

1.) Yes, it makes a good faith effort at not letting people running political campaigns run the elections.

"... outlaws communication devices attached to the system..."

2.) No, and the bill-killer in that regard is that crucial election equipment on which votes are not cast but on which ballots are programmed or on which votes are counted... like tabulators... are still allowed to be hooked to the internet.

You can try to double-talk your way around the point endlessly, and indeed you seem determined to do so, but it won't change a damn thing about what the bill actually says. And it was explained to you why it was worded that way: a lot of existing gear was designed and built with such connections.

What part of "business as usual" do you have trouble comprehending?

"...outlaws black box source code, and makes the system lawful only if the souce code is available for public scrutiny.

3.) No. There will still be "black box" code in the machine. Third-party software that will be kept secret from the public. Some of it will literally be in black boxes... hidden code in chips made in foreign countries will still be running the machines.

And Dredd, a side note: while you are slogging endlessly to justify the unjustifiable (getting Holt II passed without seriously needed modifications) you seem to have acquired some magical faith in that reveiwing the vendors code will somehow make the machines 100% secure.

Question: Do you really believe that? Did you ask, for instance, Clint Curtis about that?

... I think you're in for a surprise...

Congrats to Brad, Bev Harris, the late great Andy Stephenson, John Gideon, Avi Rubin, and all the patriots, known and unknown, who've led us to this great victory. And to the Gov. of FL. Thanks and Congrats. I haven't voted for a Republican in years, but I'd re-think that for Gov. Christ.
Celebration all around! Then back to work.
I hope the FL gov will also avoid voter intimidation and purges. I hope he'll support a full recount by hand for any election that comes in under 2%. I hope he'll support moving from a 1% random audit to 5 or even 10%. If he doesn't support such things, I'm sure the good folks at GoAllTheWayFlorida will show him the way...

Let's keep working y'all. And thanks again to Brad Friedman for hammering away at the need for election integrety for all these years.

shw

Great work Brad and of course all those hard working people in Florida. Can common sense prevail??

This is huge.

Now, what do I tell Rep Holt to do with the bill before the house of Reps?

Please post a way we can help.

{Thanks for asking, Bob! Please send email demanding a paper ballot --- one that is actually counted! --- for every vote cast in America via this link! Then go to this link to get phone numbers to call your members and demand the same thing by phone! See https://BradBlog.com/Holt for more details, talking points, info, etc. --- BF}

I am following up on Big Dan's question to Brad: "...does Florida have one e-vote company across the board, or different e-vote machines in different districts"

This brings up a very interesting topic, that I have some suspicions about, but that I have yet to read about any investigations into. My hunch, based on what I know about the genesis of these electronic voting machines leading up to the HAVA debacle, is that while there are more than one company, they are all in this together, they are all "buddies," and that they all got together and decided to create multiple companies to protect themselves from the public learning that this is one big Texas tea party (not unlike Enron) run amok.

Brad, when might we begin to learn the genesis of these various touch-screen voting machine companies? And their relationships to and with one another?

Pete Bogs said:

Fla. Gov. Crist has turned out to be that rarest of creatures - a Republicant with some integrity... I didn't vote for him, but I'd consider it next time around...

Pete, remember that KKKarl Rove works on the basis of misdirection and photo ops. I suspect that every appearance of Crist as a liberal conservative (even if he is gay) is just deception to convince the populous that he is liberal for the sake of the next presidential election. Eyes look to Florida to screw up the next election. Rove is probably trying to counter-act the culture. However, it looks like Crist supports McCain. So not sure the angle, because I'm betting that Romney or Giuliani will the horse that Rove rides to the WH.

Side bar to election corruption: Man-boy love scandals (pedophilia) are rearing their ugly heads all over the country. Quite rampant, it is beginning to seem, in high government positions. Let's hope Crist is not in that mix.

And since I'm confident that Clint Curtis' election was "robbed" by Feeney (or some conspirator) in 2006, there is a possibility that Crist did not actually win either. Certification of the official vote counts is another story. So it is not who counts the votes, but the party that certifies the votes that are the problem.

Linda says, "Brad, when might we begin to learn the genesis of these various touch-screen voting machine companies? And their relationships to and with one another?" Amen to that.
And not only that, The sales, distibution, installation, testing, maintainence, inside SOS's and propaganda (these machines are great) techniques which is all one big happy RNC controlled farce IMO.

We need to wrap this up someday

Good news to hear Florida has again realized the value of an "x" on a piece of paper.

How many more states to go?

Linda (#20)--Great question. I have been following/ video taping the Sarasota Citizen Oversight Committee Panel as they determine which new voting system to implement. We've seen some strange dog-n'-pony shows from the big three (Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S) as well as from some smaller, but even more insecure systems i.e. VOTE BY MAIL/ VOTE BY PHONE advocates. (?)

(ES&S got a grilling you wouldn't believe, by the way, from our best local skeptics; then they asked for additional time at the next meeting to demonstrate a NEW machine they whipped up for use in 2008, but will not be certified in time for our deadline. It seems Kathy Dent, our weird and obstinate S.O.E, is still shilling for her former abuser, ES&S. Makes me wonder what her father did to her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Ln1cUiftY
(video is a little rough, but you can still glean the cube)

Christine Jennings' people tell me that Florida may use VOTE BY MAIL on the side, just as an intermediary system until they get their act together. That scares me, too.

And yes, Linda, the incestuous relationship between the big three is a little-known horror story. I believe BEV HARRIS has delved uber-deep into those family connections...

ZapKitty #17

I am not talking about Holt, I am talking about Nelson (S 559) ... Holt has no language that would make Katherine "Chaddy Kathy" Harris or Ken "I'm Not A Crook" Blackwell outlawed as heads of campaigns and Secretary of State at the same time. Nelson (S 559) does.

Your #1 ... You accuse me of Holting and then agree with me? Holt has no such language in it. Only Nelson (S 559), which I referred to, has that language in it.

Your #2 ... You bring up "what the bill actually says" but you don't quote from it. Nor do you propose any standards for interpretation.

Let me offer the canon of statutory construction. That is what professionals in the courts do (courts are the ultimate authority on what statutes say).

Nelson (S 559) says:

No voting system shall contain, use, or be accessible by any wireless, power-line, remote, wide area, or concealed communication device at all.

(S 559, emphasis added). Any voting system subject to Nelson (S 559) is prohibited from containing, using, or being accessible by a) any wireless communication device; b) any power-line communication device; c) any remote communication device; d) any wide area communication device; or e) any concealed communication device.

Perhaps you were thinking of telepathy?

What is mandated to a system is mandated to each and every component of that system. The Nelson (S 559) voting system cannot communicate over the internet, or otherwise, thru any communication devices at all.

Your #3: The source code of a system (voting system here) is commonly, in court cases, not considered to include a commercial operating system commonly available. Same with commonly available commercial firmware.

Your closing:

"you seem to have acquired some magical faith in that reveiwing the vendors code will somehow make the machines 100% secure ... ask ... Clint Curtis."

I was programming and marketing legal software several years before Clint Curtis started programming in 1985.

If Clint thinks, as you seem to, that having the source code is not important, then think again.

It is a false frame to ask if having the source code makes it "100% secure". The security aspects, such as chain of custody of software and hardware, storage, etc. is in fact in Nelson (S 559).

What having access to source code does is make it "100% open to the eyes of the public". There is security in knowing what the voting system is doing and trying to do.

Having that software before the public eye exposes everything the software brain of the voting system does or tries to do. Which includes addition, subtraction, or flipping of votes, and any and all communication.

I have developed communication systems for Motorola, for example, which communicated asyncronously on a network, dial-up, and satellite uplink all at the same time on seven always active 24/7 ports.

Only the voting machine companies shudder at the prospect of open to the public software. It will be the end of nefarious scheming at the software level, which is as deep a level as we need.

I have to agree with JuliePatchouli (#21) on this.

I think all this does is QUIET DOWN those who would fight for TRUE electoral reform in the incredibly corrupt state of Florida.

A Rethuglican is a Rethuglican is a Rethuglican, and a Rethuglican Governor of Florida is not going to do ANYTHING that helps make elections in Florida more honest, as that would NOT produce Rethuglican victories.

I believe the strategy in Florida was simple: make the Rethuglican governor look "honest;" put all the disenfranchised poor and/or black Democrats back on the rolls; pass laws that make it LOOK like the election is going to be honest; and then STEAL THE VOTES and THE ELECTION OF 2008 for the RETHUGLICANS.

You can't trust an R as far as you can spit. Sorry, but any intellectually honest person who believed in their country would have left the Republican party long ago --- all that is left is "the ends justify the means, the Democrats are evil, my Party over my country" Rethuglicans who are intent on "one party rule" (i.e. Fascism).

IMHO.

CharlieL
Portland, OR

It seems very odd for Crist to be behind this issue. maybe he's not in the Bush/Rove/Cheney stolen election club and therefore is an honorable, uncorrupt republican. I know plenty of them. So that's a possibility. It's just there aren't that many in OFFICE.

Let's proceed with caution in any event!

This is one of the most promising events to happen in this state in 12 yrs since the Bushies took control and I Commend Gov Crist for doing whats ethical I did not vote for him But also would consider it next time He's brought more integrity to this state in 5 mths than Jebbie ever Could. And He's pushed and given most Felons there Civil Rights to Vote back except Murder's and sexual predators with the help of Alex Sink our Democratic Chief finacial Officer and today according to the local Progressive Radio Staion 88.5 Wynf He placed a cap on the state owned insurance company of last resort Citizens Insurance Co which is what I have and when the Insurance lobbyist Started to complain he told them tough get over it theres a new Boss in Town a Populist Republican who's cares about all the People not just a few who would have thought but time will tell but so far he's suprised me. And Brad thanks for your tireless fight for our Democracy and Helping me to Keep my Sanity.

Wow!!! What a week! I feel more and more like Florida CAN be saved.

Emma

Brad #13

Thanks for your clarification.

Still, I can't understand why you think the dems in congress are dragging their feet.

There are two bills (HR 811 and S 559) that would radically change evoting. These are democratic bills.

Like the Iraq bills, it is the republicans who are filibustering and trying to stop the improvements. Trying to stop peace and continue mayhem.

Dems have two bills in two US congressional committees, and one of those committee chairs just died. That is what has slow things down. Hell, the republicans had a decade ... the dems haven't even had half of one year yet.

And there is so much corruption that they must do some oversite to stop the voter id scam that has found its way into the key '08 election states. US Attorneys have been put in place to muck things up.

Mark my words, it will be republicans that will filibuster and/or veto the bills to improve the electronic voting machine landscape.

One item the Diebolds will make the republicans filibuster and/or veto is the requirement of making voting system software source code public. That would destroy much of the potential for corruption.

Another is the chain of custody and ballot handling process (which, in the new bills, handles ballots like evidence in criminal cases is handled) that will get rid of "sleepovers" and the like.

Another is communications. Another is making it illegal to be Ken Blackwell and hold the party chair and the election office chair in any state at the same time.

No ... when the rubber meets the road ... it will be the Thor Hearne syndrome that will stick out. Not dems "dragging their feet" IMO.