READER COMMENTS ON
"'Funds Ran Out': Kucinich Hand Count Stops in NH; Republican Albert Howard's NH Hand Count Set to Begin Thursday"
(31 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 1:02 pm PT...
Even tho I think NH should recount and count the first time free, once Kucinich led everyone to believe he was going to have it done, he should have kept his word. What is he, a pol?
Having said all that, still with the mickey mouse dog and pony show of a "chain of custody", the recount or count would be useless anyway. I mean in terms of the way adults do chain of custody of ballots. NH is a joke at election integrity.
And thus yet another chapter ends as a flop in the election integrity realm of Amurka.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 1:21 pm PT...
It seems to me, given the inaccuracies that have already been found --- inaccuracies that already make this election technically illegal --- Kucinich should not have to pay for the rest of the recount anyway. New Hampshire should be paying for it.
Unbelievable that they would just stop this recount now when they've uncovered some serious errors. Or maybe, on second thought, that's why they're stopping it.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 1:26 pm PT...
For Hillsborough County, 80,946 votes were originally counted, 80,968 were counted during the recount, and 950 gross votes were misread. That's an error rate of 1.17%.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 2:05 pm PT...
At this point I have little information, but I saw an article this morning regarding the vote counting machines here in Sacramento. The tabulators at the polling stations didn't pass the acceptance test - instead the ballots will be shipped to a central location and counted on different tabulators there.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 2:25 pm PT...
I have it on impeccable authority that "the funds ran out" is pure, unadulterated bull shit. It was not an issue of money running out. Rather it appears to be that the candidate is "cutting and running", I term I hoped i'd never have to apply to Dennis Kucinich.
His team did very little to raise issues about the lack of any real chain of custody, the key element that would legitimize any recount.
This is EXACTLY what "they" wanted. They wanted us (the EI folks and in this case, Kucinich) to get tired and quit before all the evidence was examined. Drag it out so it will be months or so before the recount is done. Funny how they take so long to recount, and so little time to do the count originally. Yes, I know they used scanners for 81% of the votes originally, but still, less than two counties counted in the week since this started - this is ridiculous. Democracy is spinning down the drain.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 2:27 pm PT...
I don't recall it being said that he only paid "some", and not all that the SoS demanded up front..?
Even so, now that we see how hosed the counts are (and by far for Shillary), perhaps it's time for Edwards or Obama to demand a count, since it's free (or $200? or what was that?).
Stopping at this stage is crazy because we're seeing a HUGE problem there, but it will be easily dismissable by the MSM if it stops at these 2 counties.. If we can show a problem across the entire state, they -might- care *doesn't hold breath*
And I'd like to keep this thing under the spot light to let America see just how we treat our "vote" these days.. broken cardboard boxes? 1/2-assed taped lids? missing hardware (lost/missing/dumped cards)?.. $3 billion in revenue and they can't get metal/fiberglass/plastic boxes that have a little bit of staying power? .. wow.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 2:45 pm PT...
My 13 year old could do a better job of counting than this...and he has a little "lock box" that I consider more secure than these "vaults".
Regardless of party affiliation, your vote should be viable.
No more electronic devices, period.
Chain of custody strictly enforced, by armed personnel. (As a former courier for an armored car company, I can tell you that people don't go sticking their noses where they shouldn't be when firearms and the right to use them are present-even the police wouldn't come near.) Anybody not authorized to be in the vault should get the Elmer Fudd treatment.
Easy to read and understandable paper ballots.
Is that too much to ask for? Is it too complex, or maybe the armed guards part is too scary?
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 2:59 pm PT...
It's not why they quit asking for more...who told them to quit counting IMO
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 3:56 pm PT...
Re: Bluebear2 #4
You are correct. Sacramento County is scrapping ALL of it's ES&S optical scanners (M100) for the Feb 5th election in its 548 polling places. The ballots will be boxed up and driven to a central office to be counted by an optical scanner (ES&S 650). This is the same scanner that is used to count the absentee ballots. I just spoke to Brad Buyse at the voter registrars office to verify this.
I posted the Sac Bee article on our site.
This quote scares me the most:
"We've never had any problem with them when we used them before – that is why it's kind of baffling," Buyse said."
What has changed with either the machines, their secret proprietary software, or the testing process since the last time they were tested?
I am glad that the Logic and Accuracy tests caught these problems BEFORE our election. I have no problem waiting hours or days to make sure that every vote is counted as cast. I do have concerns regarding the central tabulation of all of our county's votes though. I hope a strict chain of custody is adhered to and I will follow up on this issue. A lot can happen to uncounted ballots from the time they leave the polling place until they get to the central tabulation location.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 4:09 pm PT...
BB2 and billl4:
WATCH OUT FOR BUTCH AND HOPPY!
Prepare to escort those ballots!
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 4:23 pm PT...
I can't follow all 548 ballot boxes on election night, ;o)) but you can be sure that my precinct will be followed. I'll work on getting others to cover as many as we can.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 4:54 pm PT...
What's really interesting is the distribution of the discrepancies between count and recount by precinct size (see http://drvolin-theconspiracist.blogspot.com for graph).
The largest errors are in the mid-range of precinct size. In terms of stats, that's completely unexpected. You would expect to have smaller counting errors in smaller precincts, and progressively larger errors in larger precincts.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 6:51 pm PT...
Sorry to say that the statistic on errors reported in Comment 3 may be a minimum. Because of the method of counting being manual and machine, there is a mixing of misreads so that the 950 will be a Best Case. I took the Hillsborough data as of 9:15 EST (6:15 PT) and calculated exactly 1057 total of "differences within a precinct". Thats over a total of 80,969 ballots. That works out to 1.305%. No adjustment was made for errors of allocation in Nashua 5 and Manchester 6. If you make a presumed adjustment for the reported reason because you are only interested in ballot misreads, subtract 288 from 1057 = 769. The misread rate is then 0.950% or one in every hundred ballots. And thats the lowest it could be.
Assume you have 20 ballots, two are misread, but one misread is an Obama positive and a Clinton negative, and the other is an Obama negative and a Clinton positive. You still have errors, but the net effect yields a correct result. That's why I say that the error rate is a best case. The only way to determine true error rates is to choose multiple samples of 1000 ballots, and run them through several machines, each several times, and record the results of each read, and compare the results with multiple handcounts.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 7:02 pm PT...
Who contributes on the Dennis4President donations webpage? Answer: NO-ONE - BECAUSE NO ONE CAN !!!?? PLEASE GET THE WORD OUT ON THIS...
I just donated to Dennis @ Act Blue for Dennis for President because I can't donate at the Kucinich 4 President site -No one can!!!! The Kucinich4President site will NOT take donations. I tried doing this 3x's over a 2 mo. span & kept getting the same message: THE ADDRESS I PROVIDED DOES NOT MATCH THE ADDRESS MY CREDIT CARD COMPANY HAS. I contacted my card company last night & they assure me that there is nothing on their end that indicates I even tried to donate, as in an authorization, & the address I provided is, in fact, the right one.
Another thing is the in-person person on the contact page to call in lieu of on-line donating, which I also utilized, did not put my payment through. I made that $100 donation maybe as long as some 2 months ago & a recent check of all my statements indicate that I never was billed.
We need Dennis in the White House, now more than ever -PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD & get people to donate again & to do it through Act Blue for Dennis 4 President or any venue but the Kucinich4President contributions site until this gets straighted out. Thanks.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 7:16 pm PT...
And once again WMUR is lying through it's teeth:
I'd like to know 'leftisbest' 'impeccable sources' re 'money ran out'; if I remember correctly, it was posted here that Kucinich paid the entire amount before the deadline and Howard got Gardner to give him a pass re the deadline because of a wire transfer issue.
Someone sent me a word doc snapshot of Hillsborough precincts from the NH SOS site and my counting came up with 80,125 votes initially and 78,343 after the recount; no matter which numbers are correct,my counting or Brett's, the point about accuracy is valid. Now if NH law re certifying voting systems says that such voting systems must conform to the 2005 VVSG, then these systems are being used illegally just on the basis of error rate. If not, then NH citizens are just screwed.
As towards the ES+S Sacramento issues, the CA SOS is holding a hearing on Feb 20th in the first floor auditorium at the SOS building
Office of the Secretary of State
1500 11th Street
1st Floor – Auditorium
Sacramento, California 95814
"to give interested persons an opportunity to express their views regarding the proposed certification of the voting system identified below.
1. Election Systems and Software, Inc. – Unity 126.96.36.199
a. M100 Optical Scan Precinct Counter, Hardware version 1.3 with Firmware version 188.8.131.52
b. M650 Central Ballot Counter, Hardware version 1.1 with Firmware version 184.108.40.206
c. AutoMARK Voter Assist Terminal (VAT), Hardware version 1.0 (A100) and 1.1 (A200) with Firmware version 1.1.2258
d. Election Data Manager (EDM), version 220.127.116.11
e. ES&S Image Manager (ESSIM), version 18.104.22.168
f. Hardware Program Manager (HPM), version 22.214.171.124
g. Election Reporting Manager (ERM), version 126.96.36.199
h. Audit Manager, version 188.8.131.52
i. AutoMARK Information Management System (AIMS), 1.2.18
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 7:36 pm PT...
I think your analysis is incorrect for two reasons. First, you do not differentiate between ballot counting errors and tabulation errors. I think you should exclude the outliers of Nashua 5 and Manchester 5 from your analysis. Secondly, you should differentiate between the hand count and the machine precincts. If we knew how many counting machines were actually used at every precinct, we could then see whether there is a relationship between accuracy of machines and voter volume. I suspect that there is also a human component to the machine reading, so that the larger the volume, fewer ballot scan errors as caused by humans - the machine-caused error rates should theoretically not change - ceteris paribus.
Finally, I think it more appropriate to use the error rate rather than the number of ballot errors, and use the logn of ballot volume. That way you may be able to see an asymmetric relationship more clearly, or more easily see randomness.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 7:41 pm PT...
Voter confidence is so essential and New Hampshire is just the beginning of the road to the White House. We've got to study this closer. I would think people would be willing to donate money if funds were the problem. I haven't seen Kuscinich or any groups sending out requests for help.
Not only is voter confidence essential, we're suppose to be an example of Democracy to the rest of the world. If we can't do it right, how can we expect others to?
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 7:46 pm PT...
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 7:48 pm PT...
This quote scares me the most:
"We've never had any problem with them when we used them before – that is why it's kind of baffling," Buyse said."
That one caught my eye also as I gave the article a quick scan on the way out the door to go to work.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 8:08 pm PT...
Thanks Brad for your great work in reporting on this very important issue.
This is the only site in the entire internet universe (or other) that seems to be really reporting on the full data.
Over at the DKos site, they all are under the delusion that the NH recount went perfectly with no errors --- except a few extra votes for Hillary --. This is how they think over there. Boy are they going to be surprised when Mitt Romney becomes the next President.
I hope something can be done to help Dennis Kucinich continue to push forward with a full Statewide Recount. Unfortunately, various Corporations and press are targeting him in Cleveland to try and unseat him from Congress now. He may have to devote his attention on political survivial right now.
What is the procedure in which NH would itself pay for the Recount-? If the GOP side shows problems, can that trigger an automatic recounting of the Democratic side as well?
I know the State wants to do nothing. But there must be some rule about this..no?
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 8:19 pm PT...
I sent a little contribution to Dennis the other night to help out, even though I don't support him for Pres. I sure do admire what he has tried to do here though.
Some people thought he hasd already paid the whole amount. It is my recollection that he paid a small deposit which was accepted and the count begun.
The question becomes, why has he not paid the rest if this is the hold up? If he is short, why has he not asked for help and provided a way for us to help?
I think LOTS of people would like to see this thing clarified. I would think the people of NH would like to see this thing done. It will never be done until ALL the votes are counted.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 9:04 pm PT...
it would be disappointing, at best, if Kucinich failed to finish what he so appropriately began.
Considering the Brad Blog seems to think this issue was so important (and it was and still is) it's amazing to me that this site didn't offer up any support for DK!
Where was the link to DK's website where you could have made a contribution?
Oh Yeah, that's right there wasn't one!!
You expect the guy with the least amount of cash to pay for this thing - then make no effort to help raise money for it - and then try to lay the entire blame on DK!!
It a shame to see this blog use the right wing "mentality" to blame the one guy in the race who has been trying to do the right thing for the people.
[ED NOTE: We did, in fact, give the link to make donations for the Kucinich recount. The Kucinich folks asked us to put a phone number there instead. Nonetheless, they also know that we were not going to go to full public bat for *anybody* unless it was made clear that they were taking the recount seriously, for example, by demanding public records the way Albert Howard did when he filed for his count. The Kucinich folks know full well that we're here and ready to help them in any way needed, if they make clear they are going to the mat to do a proper reconciliation/recount. Money was never the issue, which they know. --- BF]
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 9:47 pm PT...
"...if I remember correctly, it was posted here that Kucinich paid the entire amount before the deadline and Howard got Gardner to give him a pass re the deadline because of a wire transfer issue."
From what I understand Kucinich paid $27,000 for a partial re-count.
Albert Howard requested a full statewide re-count and paid $57,000 to the SoS.
I was told today, by people on the ground, Kuicinich's partial request was finished today, and that was the words from the Secretary of State, himself, in an press conference earlier today.
The Republicans were getting frustrated because the SoS said he didn't have enough people to start the Republican re-count while doing the Democrat re-count.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 1/23/2008 @ 10:19 pm PT...
Kucinch has incurred legal fee from fighting the EVIL Reactor Waste manufacturer GE and their puppet BSNBC. He also has been in court in Texas to defend his right not to sign a loyalty oath, which is actually a conflict of interests as he is a Super Delegate. He is doing the most for democracy of any of the candidate of any other Senator. Now he is being harassed by corporations in Cleveland.
Yet he continue to speak for sanity and draft resolutions to rid us of the treasonous criminals in the White House.
Haven't we had enough evidence that our election system is FUBAR?
Will you enjoy voting for the candidate equivalents of Mc Donalds, Hardees, and Dairy Queen? For the next four years?
Courtesy of this disgusting corporate media?
I for one am going to contribute (more) to his effort. He deserves it:
I want to thank you for your support of our efforts to end the war, to create a not for profit healthcare system and take America in a new direction, so that we can have a government we can truly call our own
In connection with that, as you know, I'm running for re-election to the United States Congress
And I need your help to make sure that I stay in Congress
Right now I'm under attack by corporate interests, most of them from the city of Cleveland, who have an agenda, that has nothing to do with the people of my community nor with most people in this country
And so, what I'm asking you to do, to help me stay in Congress, so that I can continue to represent the people of my community, the state of Ohio and the United States of America
I need you, right now, to go to that place on the website, where you can contribute
To send a check or to phone in a contribution
I need you to contribute at least $100 to make sure that I can continue my work in the United States Congress
And if you can, to help me raise, with the help of your friends and relatives $1000
If you can help us with this fundraising effort I'll be assured of a victory in the primary election which is only six weeks away
Already television commercials are flooding the Cleveland airwaves with a message that is designed to try to knock me out of office
I've served with honor and dignity in the United States House of Representatives
I've led the effort against the war and for peace and for fair trade and for a not for profit healthcare system
And now I need you to make sure that I can continue this work
Please contribute now
Thanks and Blessings, Shallel
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 1/24/2008 @ 7:19 am PT...
Brad travels to LA, voting cards missing, vote count is off in one precinct, "internets" are down, money runs out. I just wanted to say thanks for not too much! Saw some posts on Raw Story and Think Progress about your Blog, but otherwise, no one seems to have heard of you or your efforts. Too bad. Guess we don't give a shit about our votes once they are cast.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 1/24/2008 @ 8:34 am PT...
We are about to expose the vote rigging against Ron Paul. I guarantee it will astound all of us. Dennis stopped because he is a shill. Though it seems odd that they allowed Dennis to pay for only part of the recount and Albert Howard (in place of Ron Paul) had to pay for the entire recount at once.
Anyway, vote rigging, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save us all.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 1/24/2008 @ 8:41 am PT...
People: if there aren't enough Americans with enough on the ball, and able to put in some effort so that we get Paper Ballots, Hand Counted, then we deserve the fascist government we'll get (and already have). Sad, but true.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 1/24/2008 @ 9:50 am PT...
Re: Upholding state law ignored by SOS
IMHO, most AG’s are there to protect state government officials and not prosecute on behalf of the public. Would depend a lot on NH’s AG.
666:8 Attorney General. The attorney general shall be responsible for the enforcement of the election laws as provided in RSA 7:6-c.
Re: Recount refunds
OK, here’s the page for NH Election Law.
The only way I see to get the fee returned is to either have the result changed or that a candidate is entitled, through the recount, to one more delegate or qualifies for federal funding. If Kucinich were to get any of the above due to a recount, then he would have fee returned. Same for Ron Paul. Unfortunately, I don’t see any recourse for out and out failure of the voting machines or system. Although not having machines up to federal standards might be considered under criminal law and the victim should have recourse to compensation, you’d think.
It should be in Kucinich’s best interest to continue and it is very interesting that he’s now being hounded on many fronts at this time.
Does anyone know if they only count votes in the recounts by party or if they recount all the votes on the ballots, regardless of party? Makes no sense to not be thorough unless you want to avoid finding out the unpleasant.
State or Presidential Primary Recounts
660:9 Declaration of Result, State Primary. If the recount after a state primary election shall show that some candidate other than the one declared nominated upon the original canvass of votes has the greatest number of votes cast for the nomination, such candidate shall be declared nominated and shall be placed upon the official ballot at the following election unless appeal is taken to the ballot law commission in accordance with RSA 665:6, I, I. If the person who applied for the recount was thereby shown to be the one chosen as the candidate of the party, the person shall also have any fee paid returned.
660:9-a Declaration of Result, Presidential Primary. If the recount after a presidential primary election shall show that the applying candidate qualified under RSA 659:93 for at least one more delegate than the original count indicated or that such candidate did qualify for federal election funding, such candidate shall receive such funding or shall be apportioned delegates to the national party convention in accordance with RSA 659:93 unless appeal is taken to the ballot law commission in accordance with RSA 665:6, I. If the person who applied for the recount was thereby shown to be entitled to federal funding or at least one more delegate under RSA 659:93, the person shall also have any fee paid returned.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 1/24/2008 @ 1:17 pm PT...
After a bit more thought on ballot error rates, I contend that you cannot strictly use the NH recount data AS-IS and believe that the error rate is a direct reflection of problems. That's because an error read on a single ballot may or may not actually result in transfer of a ballot. Suppose a single misread. It either incorrectly only removes a vote from one intended contender (a single count error), or it removes a vote for one candidate AND adds the vote to another candidate ( a dual count error). Thus, in the second case, you actually have a net difference of two votes.
So if you take my error rate from #13 (1.305%) that presumes that all errors are single read errors. If they were all dual read errors, the correct error rate would be 0.6525% . This is still unacceptable, but maybe more "reasonable".
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 1/25/2008 @ 11:41 am PT...
Hi, it's a girl in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada; the oil capital of the country. One of the reasons this province of Alberta's Members of Parliament & the Provincial Legislature are Conservative majorities, is because of the state of the economy here. All of the Oil interests are foreign owned in the Province of Alberta. During de-regulation of the energy "market" in 2004, a company called Centrica from the UK decided to provide us with all of our energy needs by aquisition.
If you think for 1 second the elite doesn't have a firm grasp on it's major oil producing Province, please think again. In Canada, we're soaked in the queens order of old. Our Bank of Canada is a Crown Corporation of the City of London. The Britons make money off the inflation The Bank of Canada generates to print the cash.
We are watching America sprout up the Official Opposition of Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich and the Alex Jones' Machine. I am trying to remember to align with THAT energy myself, here in oil central.
Please know that American people have the Canadian people to align their Energy with. The sentiment is the same! We do not want a commen currency. The American people deserve their own economic system, with the President every one of you deserve. Canadians, by the same token wish for a Connie Fogul Prime Minister that will say no to the british royalty here in Canada.
There is a mission to imprison all of us, to destroy our way of life. Please remember that we are all One Psychological Energy, and that can change our destiny. Know what you are buying and voting for please!
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 1/25/2008 @ 10:19 pm PT...
Rebecca # 30
Hi from a girl in Lethbridge, and a warm welcome to Bradblog.....
Stick around, you'll learn lots and you won't find a nicer bunch of people anywhere than the ones here. Plus, they know their stuff, inside and out..!