READER COMMENTS ON
"Obama's First Major Gaffe: Anti-Gay Preacher to Deliver Inauguration Invocation"
(32 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 9:51 am PT...
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer...might work
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 10:26 am PT...
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 11:21 am PT...
Someone who will be identified so closely with the results of the Civil Rights movement should know better than to think that this half-assed "Gays can be tolerated but can't be allowed equal rights" crap will do him any good among the bigots or the LGBT community.
A "Classic Dem" style triangulation failure.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 2:25 pm PT...
That's the best news I have heard in awhile "Weyrich dead".
That beast was only 66? would have thought he was 166.
As for this Warren creature, this is a major Obama mistake. He needs to stop kowtowing to these nut bags because it is not going to make a damn bit of difference to them but is going to distance Obama further from those that put him in office.
Repthuglicans are going to fight him every single step. I expect to hear the word Impeachment before summer from the Rethugs in Congress.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 3:12 pm PT...
Nunyabiz #4: You are WAY off base on thinking the word impeachment will be uttered by the Rethugs in congress before summer. They are ALREADY at it.
Obama probably only allowed Warren to speak because he didn't want it to rain. Wasn't it his church that was praying for rain at the inaug?
You are all correct though. These slime do not compromise and they do not change their minds. By being inclusive, we just give them a chance to get close enough to sucker-punch us or stick a knife in our backs. They believe they are MORALLY RIGHT and that THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS. The ENDS are the merger of church and state under THEIR CHURCH and the means are ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING LEGAL OR NOT THAT IS NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE THEIR END.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 3:26 pm PT...
After today's judging in the recount, Coleman is only ahead of Franken by 5 votes. The majority of Coleman's ballot challenges were without merit. The process will end either tomorrow or Monday I believe.
By tomorrow, Al Franken can pull slightly ahead of Coleman, even without the uncounted absentee ballots. But those, of course, should be counted too. The Minnesota Supreme Court will rule soon on whether to include the rejected absentee ballots.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 6:47 pm PT...
If this was the Nazi era and I was of Jewish descent and a president elect chose a vocal anti Jewish Nazi sympathizer to participate in his inaguration; how should I feel. Obama's lack of sensitivity and outright pandering with overtures to conservative extremists only says to the gay community that Obama tolerates their claims of equating gay men and women with pedofiles and gay marriage rights as a slippery slope to beastiality. Quiet desperation, stunned into a rage of betrayal is how the gay community finds itself. First Obama's betrayal on FISA, then his Pelosi/Reid like capitulation to Lieberman coupled with his continuation of obvious right of center choices for his cabinet and the choice of this bigot homophobe to participate in his inaguration; only demonstrates what many in the gay community feared all along, Obama is showing his true Christian Black Homophobe roots.
This president is not a friend of the gay community. His selection of Rick Warren is tantamount to condoning racism.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 7:30 pm PT...
I'm going with the dread IOZ here. The word for this is: "appropriate". I think Obummer is incapable of forgoing the politically-astute move to save his own life, let alone anyone else's.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 12/18/2008 @ 10:24 pm PT...
While not wishing to take away from the outrage of the GLBT community and their supporters (myself included), allow me to express just as much outrage over the other Rick Warren description: "opposes abortion rights." A representative of misogyny has no place in the upcoming inauguration.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 12:10 pm PT...
It is beyond me why politicians always feel obligated to pander to the American Taliban, even after it clearly damages rather than helps a candidate's reputation and electoral prospects. Why twist your words and change your stance to cater to a bigoted and irrational person? How about, "I don't need your business," instead? Just bravely say that in a free society adults may choose or marry who they love or marry, irrespective of race, religion, sexual orientation, or eating habits.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 1:08 pm PT...
People seem to keep forgetting that politicians don't really give much of a hoot what they think if they are not large sources of MONEY for their campaigns and other expensive habits. Warren has serious purse strings Obummer wants, if not exactly on his side, then at least not against him. When gays and choice advocates have that kind of filthy lucre to throw around, then they will be taken seriously as something besides wedges to con votes.
That was plain enough for us to see when it was the Republicans using it, but, no, we're too intelligent for that shit, and our politicians are above that shit.
This is so fucking boring. Endless loop. Jump out of the system, your prejudices and emotions, and LOOK.
I realize this is a blog with journalistic intent, but you're turning it into the crack these fuckers keep wedging to beat us.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 2:19 pm PT...
Warren is not really news, not like the uninvestigated death of 3,000 plus individuals.......
TO SELL NEWSPAPERS, TRY PRINTING NEWS.
ADVERTISERS SHOULD DEMAND IT.
I would buy the NY Times more often if it actually printed real news, like April Gallop suing Cheney and Rumsfeld for injuries for herself and her son from failing to evacuate the Pentagon on 9/11. NOW that's NEWS!!!!!! DETAILS ON RAWSTORY.
[ed note: Sorry, Marzi, our recently over-eager spam filter is throwing the wrong people in the slammer. I added the link for you in compensation for the delay in posting. --99]
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 3:23 pm PT...
Agent 99 (#8) wrote:
This is so fucking boring. Endless loop. Jump out of the system, your prejudices and emotions, and LOOK.
I realize this is a blog with journalistic intent, but you're turning it into the crack these fuckers keep wedging to beat us.
Err...I'm a bit confused (and quite possibly a bit dense *grins*). 99, are you objecting to Ponder's post and like comments in general because that's the way the world works, and we shouldn't beat up one of our own for just playing the game and trying to survive....?
While I don't doubt that our Fearless Leader-elect has to make decisions that may be strictly pragmatic in which the gains outweigh the costs, I believe we should still call him on those choices and up those costs, so that some day they may outweigh the perceived gains.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 3:59 pm PT...
No we should beat up on Obummer for his incessant survival tactics at our expense, just not in this lame old wedging ourselves under the guise of calling him on his bullshit. He plainly doesn't give a fuck about this blather, and I am sick of blather doing in place of effective action taking. I am sick of this stupid polemic and appalled that Jon and Brad keep throwing out the bait for it like a couple of meatheads.
Take the for-it-or-against-it out of this. It's moot. It's destructive to a decent future no matter which side you argue.
Doesn't matter if I hate or love gays, or even if I am gay. The plain fact of the matter is that the Constitution says everyone here is equal. The smart money presses this in the courts, because the stupid money is more abundant and being wasted on politicians when the solution is in the courts.
On top of this, it is my personal opinion that bitching about our own repression, in matters such as if we can marry our sweethearts or smoke our pot legally or get an abortion, in times where we are repressing the living snot out of millions of people across the globe, and very serious damage to life and limb is being done to our fellow citizens by Wall Street and other corporate thieves, is so piggy I could just spit on it... and I do! Really serious existential threats right here at home are going on unchecked, and not looking to be checked by Obummer so much now either, and so this idiot bickering needs to stop.
Who cares who waves a wand over the new president? So, the fuck, what? Gays have rights. Period. Women have rights. Period. Where they are being abridged, get it adjudicated, and cease with the circus while our fellows, here and across the globe, are suffering and dying because our government is broken.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 7:04 pm PT...
[ed note: Comment deleted. I think I know what you were trying to say, but your statements actually became racist statements in your "anti-gay racism" invective. Sounds as though you are pretty angry, but we don't want that kind of talk here. Please read our commenting rules. Thank you. --99]
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 12/19/2008 @ 9:12 pm PT...
Some good has come out of evil. The mainstream media has been irredeemably exposed for what is: pandering fascist disinformation disseminators.
I'm actually looking forward to how Playboy develops under the helm of Hugh Hefner's sons.
They say the want to turn it into a radical retro magazine --- with retro-style nude photos --- and will cover topics that the cowardly fascist media sycophants ignore.
To think that people really will be buying Playboy for the articles and artsy photos, LOL.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 11:06 am PT...
@ Agent99 - Comment 14
Who cares who waves a wand over the new president? So, the fuck, what? Gays have rights. Period. Women have rights. Period.
You are very correct, thus I agree.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 3:55 pm PT...
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 4:24 pm PT...
Thanks, 99, I get it now.
I don't know whether Obama cares or not. He will do what is expedient.
It's good to make a noise. The courts don't always act like they should. Silence isolates, makes it harder for rights to be recognized.
There are many reasons to make a noise and to take action. One reason doesn't take away from another.
Perhaps with the massive destruction of the human spirit taking place in the world that our country is responsible for, we should dispense with the inaugural celebration and ceremony altogether and just tell Obama to get straight to work.
Barring that, I see no harm in objecting to Rick Warren.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 4:57 pm PT...
Look, I object to him like crazy. I forbore linking an image of him with Obama that made my stomach drop out from inside me, because I must not be a busybody if I want us to stop being busybodies and perform.
My point is that all this innocent objecting in the public square, so to speak, is feeding the power of it as a wedge issue and doing nothing to settle the issue. So it is harmful from the standpoint of real world progress, and from the standpoint of it, and other relatively much less critical social issues, enjoying heaping helpings of our time, energy and attention --- exhibiting to the world our filthy self-involvement in the face of apocalyptic suffering and death and planetary emergencies.
I do not wish to be insensitive. I wish for us to function like decent adult citizens of the planet.
Civil rights are not political issues. They are legal issues. Martin saw to that before they murdered him. The law can only work for the people when the people press for it in the courts. The point is to get the issue handled --- and it is being handled, see my link at #18 --- and to quit empowering the enemy by pitching hissies against its population of pigs.
And, anyway, that's so gay....
And it just never stops giving politicians boundless opportunities to get us squandering our votes. Maybe there is no way to completely kill their resort to "wedge issues", but, check it out, there is a way to take this one away from them. Jerry Brown filed on it yesterday.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 5:52 pm PT...
So Why did Obama put a major pro-homosexual activist in the top spot for Education? The guy who wanted to establish a high school exclusively homosexual students? There will also be homosexual activist groups marching in the inaugural parade, right? So what's your complaint? Seems like he's injecting a little balance into things after all with Warren.
Also, I'm not really looking forward to my tax dollars funding abortion on demand through all nine months for any reason, as Obama has promised to PP will be among his first achievements in office. What happened to *choice* for me to do with my money as I see fit? I've had two family members violently killed in the womb. I don't want that to happen to anyone else's family - why should I be made to fund it? And why should doctors who oppose killing preborn babies be made to do it? What about choice for them? Isn't it just as heinous to make another human being go through life with the conviction that they have murdered somebody (and the doctor knows because he/she gets to see the ultrasound and count the body parts to make sure they are all there) as you seem to think "punishing a woman with a baby is?(as Obama put it?)"
Be consistent about the choice rhetoric folks - it cuts both ways, or you're being hypocritical.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 6:10 pm PT...
The issue is not Rick Warren; in effect the issue is that the gay community is realizing that President Elect Obama and Black Americans are not a friends of the gay community. It is political suicide for the gay community to ignore the inherent Christian Black homophobia that is pervasive in the voting Black community. Their vote was instrumental in this current’s President win back in 2000, their vote was intrumental in the California Proposition win this last election. Obama and indeed Black religious leaders like Al Sharpton are not apologetic about their views, further they have embraced the likes of White Conservative religious figures such as hate speech gay racist Rick Warren. The gay community must realize that the gay vote must no longer casually be afforded to any Black candidate at any level; be it school board, local, state or federal. Black American’s political gain is a nail in the coffin on the political interests of the gay community. Black America represented with the voice of this President Elect and in the voice of its religious leaders, have found no ill in the rhetoric that Rick Warren speaks, to them gay racist extreme statements are merely differences that warrent no rebuke. The gay community has acknowledged within its ranks that White conservative politicians and religious leaders work vigorously against their interests. The gay commuity must realize that on political issues that impact its community; the voting block that is the Black American community is no different than than the White Christian conservative political block when it comes to gay political interests.
The appropriate responds to the Rick Warren selection, is for the gay community to wake up to the inherent Black Christian homophobic nature of this voting block and fight them politically with the same vigor afforded the White Christian homophobic gay racist speaking and condoning Huckabee like community.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 12/20/2008 @ 6:56 pm PT...
I really don't think that's the conclusion you should draw from it at all, and the Black Christian Churches have not much in common with Huckabee types. People of all races and creeds and backgrounds are uneasy about homosexuality and what might be the consequences to society of normalizing it. If you can be objective for a minute you'd probably agree that's understandable.
Legislating against the rights of homosexuals is unconstitutional, and some people are rabid about "fixing" that, but they can't. They can't, under the Constitution. The time is now to stop the street fight and get down to business with the law.
The more yelling and hating you do against people like Warren and Huckabee, the more of their constituents you get out voting against your interests, and the politicians on both sides make pots and pots of money on precisely this.
Do you want gay rights insured, or do you want to fatten the coffers of politicians who don't care, or don't care enough to halt the misery when they're getting so rich off leaving it writhe?
California Attorney General Jerry Brown has filed to have Prop. 8 overturned. It's going to happen. There probably isn't a state in the union where this isn't going to happen. It's flat against the law everywhere to deny human rights.
Please. Just donate to a legal fund, or volunteer, and quit fighting your fellow citizens about it.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 12/21/2008 @ 10:52 am PT...
If you should have a choice about spending your tax dollars for abortions, then I should have a choice about spending my tax dollars for murdering countless Iraqis and thousands of Americans in the name of the Global War Against Terror, or for any other cause that I'm morally opposed to. Right? If I'm an avowed vegetarian and I'm hired at a supermarket that wants me to work in the deli section, I should have the right to refuse service to any customer who wants anything except cheese. Right?
That's not the way it works.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 12/21/2008 @ 11:01 am PT...
Agent 99 wrote,
Civil rights are not political issues. They are legal issues.
That's how it should be, but it isn't. How did the law work for civil rights for African Americans before MLK? Without the noise and the protests and the demonstrations, the law didn't do squat. Same for gay rights, women's rights, voting rights, any rights you can name. The fight takes place on many fronts, and being loud and visible and unrelenting is the only way to insure that the laws actually work in our favor.
I'd rather be considered bitchy, obnoxious, and risk making enemies of the radical right than sit back and be complacent and trust that the courts will do the right thing. If Jerry Brown prevails, it isn't just because the law is on his side. Without the movement and pressure and being unrelenting, we would never even have gotten this far.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 12/21/2008 @ 11:40 am PT...
I, of course, respectfully disagree. The movement and pressure count for something, for sure --- in fact, they count for everything when directed properly and wisely. Jerry Brown will prevail just and only because the law is on his side. He has moved to take it up by the segment of the movement applying pressure on him, the Attorney General, not people being considered by their fellows as bitchy, obnoxious and risking making enemies of anybody.
The getting out in the public square part is where movements identify themselves, where the people identify each other, so they can organize. That phase then comes to an end and actual effective action is undertaken by the organization/s springing from it.
You say that the issue only should be legal, but is political. You are flat wrong. It is legal, but people are blind to that fact and actually risking losing the pointless battles they keep waging on the wrong stage, with the wrong people, toward no possible positive effect, save perhaps the personal gratification of that sort of expression.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 12/21/2008 @ 3:43 pm PT...
I'm all for taking action. Just complaining is, well, just complaining. I respectfully disagree, however, that we should keep our mouths shut about things that are wrong, for the good of the movement, and because of how we might be perceived.
You wrote (emphasis mine),
He has moved to take it up by the segment of the movement applying pressure on him, the Attorney General, not people being considered by their fellows as bitchy, obnoxious and risking making enemies of anybody.
First, how do you know that the same segment who applied political pressure are not also considered bitchy, obnoxious, and enemies of Rick Warren's ilk?
Second, sorry, but it IS political, what gets to the courts and how the courts decide. When Roe vs. Wade is in jeopardy from places like South Dakota and elsewhere, how can you say civil rights are not political, only legal?
Civil rights for gays, women, blacks, etc., have to be fought for constantly. Part of that fight is making the noise. You say that there is no use beyond personal gratification for making this particular noise; that the movement has evolved beyond that now.
I respectfully disagree. Without the noise, the pressure will come off, and backlash will occur. Believe me, Rick Warren et. al. will never stop making their noise and pushing back against us. For us to stop is to be pushed back downstream.
Here's a link to Big Tent Democrat's post (on TalkLeft) on an Andrew Sullivan piece about the Rick Warren issue. Although I often disagree with BTD, on this I think he hits the nail on the head.
According to Sullivan, not beinging invited to deliver the invocation at the inauguration is stigmatizing to all the reverends in the United States. By choosing Warren, Obama has stigmatized all the others. Of course this is ridiculous. By choosing Warren, Obama has ELEVATED Warren and his beliefs to respectability. For no good reason. This is a poor use of the bully pulpit of the Presidency.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 12/21/2008 @ 3:57 pm PT...
So, I guess, fuck everyone losing their homes and everyone starving and global warming. It's more important to keep screaming about the injustice that is already being redressed.
Mayhap some of the people taking effective action are already reviled by some for obnoxiousness, but my point is that they wouldn't be if they weren't obnoxious, but simply taking steady effective steps, without all the noise that is now doing NOTHING other than negative stuff like energize the opposition.
Go on being obtuse.
Go on making sure everybody identifies you as a staunchly pro-gay person. Big whoop, Lora. Big whoop.
The whole world is burning down and gays have won their fight already. It's definitely TIME to quit braying and push the AGs firmly face-to-face with the Constitution.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 12/22/2008 @ 5:19 pm PT...
My last as well.
Can the damn celebration altogether and get to work, then.
I'm just arguing my opinions here, not looking for brownie points. Trust me, I don't need 'em and I don't care about 'em. Truly.
As for being obtuse...if you think gays (and blacks and women) have WON, already....well, pot meet kettle.
I do wonder why you're so vehemently opposed to objecting to a crappy move by Obama. You've admitted it's crappy, yet to yell about it is somehow so offensive that we're letting children starve and drown in Bangladesh. Get a grip! I say yelling about it helps, you say it hurts. Honestly, I doubt this particular little noise about a relatively trivial event does very much one way or the other, so, as you say...
*offers the peace pipe* Shall we move on?
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 12/22/2008 @ 6:30 pm PT...
They have won legally already.
It only takes being vigilant about the law while living alongside everyone else, sharing concerns with them, everyday human concerns... gradually realizing a release from the bigotry....
I'm making such a fucking big deal about this because I am sick and bloody-fucking tired of the polemic. Things that make me this tired:  it perpetuates it as a wedge issue, which either draws out any issue or defeats it utterly;  it is already starting to turn into something more like the hereditary victim shtick used by some Jews, who lose no opportunity to censure and punish and defame anyone who dares mention anything remotely disapproving of Israel, which is obnoxious and divisive and harmful; and  the aforementioned Ugly American selfishness of making such a hairy deal out of our own social discomforts while the world burns down.
I once came upon a blog post somewhere that suggested the new James Bond should be depicted "romancing" another male in the course of his vaunted adventures on behalf of Her Majesty's Secret Service. I said this was an awful idea because Bond's whole image as the ultimate heterosexual would be ruined. That's always been the entire point of him. I didn't and don't mind the idea of intelligence action heroes employing this tactic in the movies. Just not Bond. That's sacrilege. Something like a hundred, and that's a conservative estimate, homosexuals and/or their supporters, all obviously in the last stages of rabies, piled on to say the most outrageous things about me, the least offensive of which was that I was a homophobe, and that label offends the snot out of me.
The shit has got to stop. And you're right that this is trivial. It's trivial all over the place. THE kernel of it that is not trivial is the human rights part. THAT goes to court. The rest of the relentless name-calling, and job threatening, and boycotting, and victimization bloviating has to stop. It's poison.
It's poison to the human rights of gays, and to the serenity of people who need to focus on stuff more threatening to life on earth, and I, while staunchly in favor of human rights for all humans, did not sign on to endure the perpetuation of this bullshit ad nauseam.
I'm right about this.
I hold similar feelings of intolerance about the immigration and gun and abortion issues. People taking every opportunity to comment on one side or the other of these issues are likewise contributing only to the weight of the wedges, not the solutions to the problems, and distracting from solving the ones that threaten masses of humans and other creatures.
I just took a toke off your pipe. Thanx.
And, yes, what the hell makes Obummer think he has time to party at all on the 20th? Take the oath. One minute speech for posterity. And then get his ass behind his desk. I'm for that.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 12/22/2008 @ 7:03 pm PT...
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 12/22/2008 @ 7:11 pm PT...
*grins and takes another toke offa da pipe*
I'm with ya on Bond, hands down!
And...yeah. Time to get to work, on some really critical stuff.
Agree to disagree on some of the rest. All done for now.