READER COMMENTS ON
"Congress Cowers to Terrorist-Enabling NRA"
(34 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 1:18 am PT...
This is a statistic from the FBI.A 19 year high 47% of American adults report to owning a gun. The firearm homicide rate has dipped remarkably. Gun murders sank from more than 10,000 in 2005 to 8,776 in 2010 and appeared to drop again in 2011 according to a recent preliminary report by the FBI. Why are the cases where people use guns to protect themselves and their families never reported in the media. My aunt had essentially had her life saved last year because she had a gun near her bed when a burgurlar entered her home and attempted to rape her. She drew her gun, however did not shoot him. She phoned the police and had waited for them to arrive as she had the gund pointed at him until the authourites arrived. I am not a member of the NRA nor am I familiar of what they do but her life was possibly saved because of the fact that she had a gun for her protection as well as the protection of my cousins. If the guns are taken away from law abiding citizens, the criminals will still be able to get them if they wanted to and the rest of us will be helpless. I wonder if there were a couple of people in that theatre with a concealed weapon if some lives could have been saved. I believe a few would have been saved.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 7:57 am PT...
@ Leonardo. Your post was merely irritating until I got to the line "I am not a member of the NRA nor am I familiar of what they do" which was quite funny. Whenever such a line is encountered, it leaves me no doubt that the writer is a paid troll, following a script. Why don't you move up in the world by selling drugs to children?
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 9:09 am PT...
I'm not great on computers but I had a hard time finding current studies that simply give you the straight ahead comparative data on gun ownership and gun violence country to country.
Leonardo's numbers may be correct or not, I don't know. Leonardo, are those the numbers for the whole USA or do they represent some "rate" per some population number?
Leonardo, more importantly what I want to know is, what are the comparative rates of gun violence in all the other modern industrialized societies. If the US HAS gone down to 8000, say, but the other countries are at 37, then big whoop, your point is a misleading one. Where are all the studies found? I tried the first link in Brad's piece but still wasn't quite getting what I was looking for.(which might be my fault)
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 10:50 am PT...
The FBI website has lots of data but they are not conveniently organized but all the data you would ever want is prolly there. E.g., http://www.fbi.gov/about...-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls Violent crime appears to have been falling over time. Take that for what it is worth.
Wiki offers some data though it is not perfect because they are for different years and different sources. Nevertheless, they are informative. Below I show firearm death rate per 100,000 and the number of guns owned per 100.
USA 10.2 89
Mexico 12 15
Switzerland 6.4 46
Finland 6.9 32
Sweden 2.4 32
It is not as simple as #guns proportional to #deaths
I am not a member of the NRA either but I own guns...I am Davey for goodness sake!
Maybe I should join the NRA though.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 11:00 am PT...
Leonardo spewed @ 1:
The firearm homicide rate has dipped remarkably. Gun murders sank from more than 10,000 in 2005 to 8,776 in 2010 and appeared to drop again in 2011 according to a recent preliminary report by the FBI.
Got URL? Or just making that up?
That said, if we presume your stat is accurate, congrats on seeing the gun murder rate drop from 3.1 9/11s each and every single year in the U.S., to just 3 9/11s each and every single year in the U.S.! That's certainly something to be proud of! Keep up the great work!
I am not a member of the NRA nor am I familiar of what they do but her life was possibly saved because of the fact that she had a gun for her protection as well as the protection of my cousins. If the guns are taken away from law abiding citizens, the criminals will still be able to get them if they wanted to and the rest of us will be helpless
One of the things the terrorist-enabling NRA does --- which we know you're not "familiar" with --- is help make stooges like you think that somebody wants to take your aunt's gun away, when no serious person actually does, while at the same time making sure that terrorists like James Holmes are able to buy, without the slightest background check, semi-automatic weapons with 100-round clips capable of shooting 60 Americans per minute at gun shows, along with buying 6000 rounds of ammo on the Internet, no questions asked!
Neat, huh? But thanks for advancing the terrorist-enabling NRA's phony, strawman argument for them while they (and you by extension) continue to help the terrorists!
I wonder if there were a couple of people in that theatre with a concealed weapon if some lives could have been saved.
Wonder no more --- even though the terrorist-enabling NRA thanks you for doing so. Since you may be too lazy to actually read that link, I'll summarize: Even though it's already a concealed carry state, it's unlikely that the CO gunman --- wearing fully body armor and firing 60 rounds a minute in a darkened, sold-out, panic-stricken theater full of smoke bombs and hundreds of people screaming and running --- would have been taken down by a Dirty Harry with a pistol in the crowd.
But let's not let reality get in the way of good imaginary movie ending and your support of the terrorist-enabling NRA! They thank you for your efforts. So do the terrorists.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 11:26 am PT...
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 12:22 pm PT...
One more point in response Leonardo's silly, terrorist-enabling NRA talking point that, "if there were a couple of people in that theatre with a concealed weapon if some lives could have been saved", here's another response:
While Cinemark does have a no-firearms policy, it is highly unlikely that someone would have been able to take down the alleged gunman. He was heavily armed, in full protective gear, thew tear gas before he opened fire, and was in a dark, crowded theater. Armed law enforcement officers responded within 90 seconds, and in that time he injured or killed 70 people.
To which Wapo's Greg Sargent adds:
if it weren't for those pointy-headed liberals, then movie-goers would be allowed to show up at theaters in their own body armor and gas masks, too, toting their own automatic weapons, complete with high capacity magazines! ... If those liberals hadn’t gotten their way, and theatergoers had been allowed to attend an evening of entertainment properly prepared, armed and equipped to face evil in any form, they could have taken care of that shooter in seconds. Who says the shooting hasn’t prompted a serious policy debate?
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 12:24 pm PT...
Davey Crocket said:
I just joined the NRA! Two year membership is only 50 bucks.
Cool! The terrorists thank you! Your support of liars and terrorist-enablers and the folks who want to make sure you have the right to easily shoot 70 Americans in about a minute is greatly appreciated, no doubt!
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 12:32 pm PT...
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 2:20 pm PT...
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
Ernest A. Canning
said on 7/23/2012 @ 2:21 pm PT...
There are politicians, including the President and Mitt "I support the 2d amendment" Romney, who cower before the NRA and then there is Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) whose husband was killed and son seriously injured in the 1993 Long Island Rail Road shooting.
Keep in mind that Holmes had no criminal history; no psychiatric history. The arsenal and the ammo were all obtained legally, and in Colorado, he didn't violate the law by loading all that crap into his car and driving to the theater with it. Colorado law enforcement were not in a position to effectuate an arrest until the moment of the assault --- at which time it was too late!
There is a word that aptly describes the current status of our gun laws --- insane!
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 3:11 pm PT...
Interesting article. Some of it resonates with me--but not all. We do have too much violence in our culture and it is bound to have an effect. How much, I do not know...would not hazard a guess either. The author lost me on the "privatizing" rant. I am a capitalist as are my friends (both liberal and conservative). I do not know anyone who thinks that way.
BTW, I have liberal friends who own guns, so this issue is probably not a simple L-R one. I suppose it would be convenient if it were.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 3:20 pm PT...
David #3. I agree there isn't much,actually hardly anything at all, on the current stats comparing countries on gun violence. Kind of odd to me. Is/was Murdock friendly with the NPR too?
I did manage to find one for the US, from the UK, that has stats from 2005 to 2010.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 3:23 pm PT...
Frug. Should be NRA NOT NPR
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 3:42 pm PT...
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 7:16 pm PT...
Multiple choice question: Who did Holmes claim to be?
a) Wayne LaPierre
b) The Joker
c) David Keene
d) George W Bush
e) Charlton Heston
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 7:35 pm PT...
Good article Brad and you said everything I have been saying about the NRA for years. I.m glad someone has the guts to put it in print. Our goverment is either in the pocket of the NRA or to scared of losing their seat to stand up to them. I followed a truck that had the coiled snake with words that said do not tread on my gun rights. I think of all the inniocent people that have their rights along with their lives taken away from them. I have no problem with someone having a gun but I do have a problem with the automatic guns with the large clips. It is insane. As far as I am concerned the NRA along with all their supporters have blood on their hands and will be called to account for themselves when their time comes.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 7:54 pm PT...
The lunatic calmly blew the heads off those sitting up front with a 12 gauge shotgun, then fired an ASSAULT RIFLE at a bullet/second rate into a panicked crowd until it jammed and then emptied multiple clips from his Glock.
90 SECONDS after the first patron called 911, he was done and was outside, where he was arrested.
Brad, the man shot a good percentage of those in the theatre in SECONDS! All with legally purchased weapons.
The gun freak idiots commenting are claiming they could fumble around for their piece, aim and kill an armored psycho killer among pandemonium, without shooting anyone else in error, within ONE MINUTE.
The number of innocent Americans laying dead is irrelevant to the ALEC sponsoring greedy bastard gun makers/importers taking advantage of fearful Fox watching idiots.
What will matter is the hit the motion picture industry will take this summer.
Ten percent drop in ticket sales and suddenly the gun glorifying movie industry eagerly using complimentary shiny new guns, is suddenly ashen faced.
Regular suburbanites in a "safe" movie theatre were massacred, trapped in a place with 2 exits and jammed rows of people.
Maybe a 20% drop because all movies can be watched online anyways.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 8:29 pm PT...
Davey Crocket @ 10 said:
BTW, I have liberal friends who own guns, so this issue is probably not a simple L-R one. I suppose it would be convenient if it were.
Don't worry, by week's end (likely long before), I promise the issue will be regarded as a "L-R one". That's the work of the NRA, and most on the Right who have figured out that dividing the nation falsely between phony "Right" and fake "Left", even on issues like this where most of the nation agrees, works great for them. And yet the division will be done. As usual.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 7/23/2012 @ 8:45 pm PT...
ROFL Brad. Did you take the quiz?
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
Ernest A. Canning
said on 7/23/2012 @ 10:07 pm PT...
Anyone who actually thinks that this massacre could have been stopped if someone else inside the theater was carrying a concealed handgun should watch clips of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout.
300 law enforcement officers responded to two heavily armed men wearing body armor, just as Holmes wore body armor. Yet, taking down these two men proved no easy task, even for highly trained police officers. By the time the shooting stopped, the two had fired 1,300 rounds.
If anything, someone else firing within that darkened theater may have done no more than increase the number of innocents struck by stray bullets.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
Ernest A. Canning
said on 7/23/2012 @ 10:16 pm PT...
Davey Crocket @12 wrote:
The author lost me on the "privatizing" rant. I am a capitalist as are my friends (both liberal and conservative). I do not know anyone who thinks that way.
Well, Davey, if you are unfamiliar with the dichotomy between the profits of the few vs. the needs of the many, your circle of friends is a small one indeed.
It comes down to values. Is the capitalist value embodied in the profits of the small arms manufacturers who are making a killing off the killing of greater import than the need to have governments protect the health, safety and very lives of their citizens.
And while we're on the topic of capitalism and profits, there a classic statement from Bob Dylan's Masters of War that seems apropos:
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 7/24/2012 @ 4:49 am PT...
Isn't it comforting yo know that al Qaeda terrorist leader Adam Gadahn agrees with and supports the NRA?
So, when brad says the NRA supports terrorists, He ain't kidding.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 7/24/2012 @ 5:24 am PT...
Excellent quote. Dylan is right on, as was Jesus (Mark 8:36). Even Solomon (in all his riches) understood this (Prov 23: 4,5).
I believe in capitalism but that is not where my faith lies. My soul is in the hands of the living God and my faith in Christ His Son.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 7/24/2012 @ 8:37 am PT...
So, are the people on the other side of the debate communists:
“All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.”
- Mao Tze Tung, Nov 6, 1938
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing..."
- Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942
Or perhaps loyalist British:
"The Battle of Lexington and Concord took place April 19, 1775, when the British sent a force of roughly 1000 troops to confiscate arms and arrest revolutionaries in Concord, Massachusetts."
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
Ernest A. Canning
said on 7/24/2012 @ 9:14 am PT...
With all due respect, NateTG, your argument that only dictatorships impose gun control lacks any scientific support and reflects the type of mass paranoia that typically arises from gun lobby propaganda.
When last I checked, the UK was neither communist nor governed by Nazis. As reported by Wikipedia, “Firearms are tightly controlled by law, and there is little political debate and no strong public opposition to control.”
The benefits to public safety are rather striking.
In the United Kingdom in 2009 there were 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison, the figure for the United States was 3.0, about 40 times higher.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 7/24/2012 @ 11:16 am PT...
NateTG asked @ 25:
So, are the people on the other side of the debate communists
Of course not. But the terrorist-enabling NRA thanks you just for asking the absurd question.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 7/24/2012 @ 1:40 pm PT...
The brave (NRA) gun carrying ass@#$%, RAN. He ran out the door even though children were hurt!
I hope he can't sit/shit for years!
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 7/24/2012 @ 1:41 pm PT...
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 7/25/2012 @ 3:49 pm PT...
Thank you Brad for taking on such a complex and infuriating topic. I work in the field of Mental Health and have been wondering: Why hasn't anyone discussed the role that personality disorders play in these mass shootings? A simple, albiet not cheap, brain scan can determine if someone has Antisocial Personality Disorder (ie is a psychopath) and has the capacity of carrying out and walking away from crimes such as the latest shooting with no remorse. Why not couple a assault rifle purchase with a side of MRI?
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 7/25/2012 @ 7:06 pm PT...
I totally agree with you Jennifer and thank you for bringing it up and mostly for helping in that field. I couldn't watch his first day in court because you can see he is not in reality. They should never have shown him out there like that. How could he comprehend what was happening.
I know to say you feel sorry for him will bring out the wingnuts, but I do and feel sad for his parents. The frustrating part is there isn't much one can do. I was told , when a loved one was very depressed, that unless he tried to harm himself they couldn't force him into help. It's so heartbreaking to watch and not be able to help. (He is ok now but was very depressed for 5-6 years)
Bob Cesca wrote a great article on this subject and IMO he is spot on.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 8/3/2012 @ 8:26 am PT...
I find it more painful no one in the audience could stop him as they were not armed. Over 1.5 million violent crimes are STOPPED by owners of guns. Log onto YOUTUBE sometime and watch concealed surveillance camera video of robberies and count the times the armed defenders STOP the armed assailants. Bad people do bad things. I'm armed to the teeth but I don't even kill the chipmunks that invade my garden. Imagine the horror had the assailant in the theater used fire bombs. It is IMPOSSIBLE to disarm the bad guys. But it is NOT impossible for us to grow better people in our society. I would love to make the world all safe and cozy. It's not the people that cause death, it's the leadership systems that create greed and insanity. Look at history... and you will find the greatest killers disarmed their counties people first. We can NOT protect the innocent AND stop an evil government that felt free to harm it's subjects at the same time. Keep the people armed..... but grow better people.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 8/3/2012 @ 8:44 am PT...
Let me add this.... calling us Terrorists supporting, defeats your own argument.... people who support the second amendment STOP terrorists with guns. However, our warped leadership is just as bad as the terrorists in that death is the goal for sick views of religion and capitalism alike.
I hate warped leaderships as much as I hate killing... because it causes us to use death to stop it.... just like the need to kill to stop a would be mass killer in a theater. Had you been armed, would you have killed him to stop it? To save the others? Take that one and swallow it whole. It would choke us both.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 8/3/2012 @ 12:20 pm PT...
Mark @ 32 knee-jerked:
I find it more painful no one in the audience could stop him as they were not armed.
And thank God they weren't, or things would likely have been much worse, as this gun owner details.
Of course, I'm sure you believe your Dirty Harry with a handgun would have been able to overcome a pitch black, tear gassed filled theater, sold out and with people running and screaming in panic as a man in head-to-toe body armor sprayed the crowd with 70 shots in 90 seconds. But the reality is quite different, and the chances are far greater that there would have been many more dead had someone tried to take him out in that circumstances.
But let's not let reality stop you from forwarding the NRA's propaganda. Speaking of which, you went on to say...
Look at history... and you will find the greatest killers disarmed their counties people first.
That's nice. Who is calling for that? Though the NRA red-herring, strawman response is both unsurprising and counterproductive.
We can NOT protect the innocent AND stop an evil government that felt free to harm it's subjects at the same time. Keep the people armed.
Good luck with that. You are deluded into thinking your guns are going to stop the government? Your AR-15 with a 100 round magazine versus a Predator Drone missile? You lose, chief.
Yes, the citizenry must be on guard against a tyranical governement, but you won't be stopping them or changing it with your weapons, no matter how much you imagine the NRA talking points work here either.
Mark @ 33 continued the delusionary, NRA forwarded talking points with:
Let me add this.... calling us Terrorists supporting, defeats your own argument.... people who support the second amendment STOP terrorists with guns.
I support the 2nd Amendment. The NRA only claims to (they conveniently ignore that "well regulated" part, as, apparently, you do as well). In the bargain, they've lobbied to assure that people on the Terrorist Watch List can buy any weapons they like, and that criminals, former felons, spousal abusers and, yes, terrorists, can buy any weapon they like at gun shows as well, without a single background check.
But I guess your in support of that as well.
Had you been armed, would you have killed him to stop it? To save the others? Take that one and swallow it whole. It would choke us both.
You already choked yourself with it. No, I wouldn't have been able to kill him in the 90 seconds before the armed police arrived. Neither would you have been able to. But you and I both would have been able to kill a whole bunch of additional folks while trying.
Choke on that, as you keep up the bad, knee-jerk work, amigo.
(And please read the link I offered to you above before you knee-jerk again. Thanks!)