The following is a transcript of the Peter B. Collins Show on KRXA 540-am, Monterey, California on October 24, 2005.

The in-studio guest was Monterey County Registrar of Voters, Tony Anchundo. He brought with him one of the new Sequoia DRE (touch-screen) voting machines, to be deployed for the first time in Monterey, during the November 8th, 2005 Special Election in California.

Brad Friedman, of The BRAD BLOG, joined them by phone for the extraordinary hour. You can listen to the audio version of the hour in MP3 format is here. Brad blogged about it all here.

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PETER B. COLLINS: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, this is KRXA-540. I'm Peter B. Collins and we've made some technical adjustments in our studio here this afternoon to welcome the Registrar of Voters for Monterey County, Tony Anchundo, who joins us. Good afternoon, Tony.

TONY ANCHUNDO: Good afternoon, Peter B.

PETER: And you brought in a Sequoia electronic voting machine, it's right here in our studio.

ANCHUNDO: Yes, this is a new era in voting in Monterey County and so what we have here in front of us is a DRE voting system, Direct Recording Electronics, commonly referred to as touch screen voting.

PETER: Okay and what's one of these babies cost?

ANCHUNDO: Well, the actual device, with the VeriVote Printer, estimated about $4,000.

PETER: Okay and the VeriVote Printer is something I think many of our listeners are interested in, Tony. We live in a world where many people react to the election results of 2000 and 2004 - and they have deep suspicions about the honesty and integrity of our voting systems. And in particular, electronic machines, whether it's touch screen or other types, that do not include some sort of a voter-verifiable paper trail, have caused great concern among voters and election advocates. Does that printer that you describe, produce a receipt that I come away with after I vote?

ANCHUNDO: Well, first of all, I wanted to just assure all your KRXA listeners that this technology has been around for many years, but this is the first time that a voter-verifiable paper report will appear to voters. They don't actually get a receipt, it's an opportunity for them to verify with the paper report, that the votes that they voted were cast properly and they can review it and then cast their ballot and you know, leave the polling place knowing that there's some integrity and honesty to the voting system.

PETER: Okay, now we'll come back to that issue for sure and shortly we'll be joined by Brad Friedman, our friend from BradBlog.com. But Tony, first, could you walk me through a voter experience on this Sequoia machine?

ANCHUNDO: Well, this is the first time that voters, at the precinct level, will have an opportunity to vote the DRE touch screen voting. In 1999, voters had the opportunity here in Monterey County, to try this technology at our early voting locations. We had them in Delmonte, a shopping center in Northridge, South County and North County. But this is the first time, again, that they'll have this opportunity to do it at the polling place. What we have to identify is first, once a voter comes into their polling place, they have to be a registered voter, so they will sign the roster, determine eligibility, and at that point and time, then the poll worker will insert a voter card into the activation unit. The activation unit just tells that particular card, that this voter is eligible to vote. They will punch in a three-numeric code device, at that point and time hand it to the voter, the voter then goes ahead and inserts it into the [inaudible] device.

PETER: I'll do that in just a second, I want to describe the activator, which is a box about the size of a Playstation, or an Xbox, and it features a display screen at the top and there is an insert where this card, that is a plastic, digitally encodable card, the kind of thing you use at a hotel room. People are very familiar with these, these days, credit card size. What you did is inserted it and based on the verification of my information, that I'm a registered voter, you then issue me this card, which enables me to go to the DRE machine itself, and now if I can bring this microphone over a little closer, I'm going to insert this in the yellow slot here, that is very obvious. I would not be confused, there's no other slot where I could accidentally insert it. So I push it in and now it's asking me whether I want English, or Espanol, and I'll choose English. Now it's giving me a choice of candidates...

ANCHUNDO: And of course this a demonstration device, so some of the choices you have are from some of our elected officials from the past. But let me just back up....

PETER: You know, I've always wanted to vote for John F. Kennedy, I was too young at the time.

ANCHUNDO: Well, you know, I've always had a desire to vote for good 'ole Abe Lincoln. But let me just step back a little bit, Peter. The activation device, only the code that's placed inside is the precinct code, it does not identify the individual voters. So, every voter will have the same activation code. Again, that represents the precinct and that tells the voting device itself, the touch screen device, what precinct this voter is in.

PETER: Alright. So, I am voting for John F. Kennedy for President.

ANCHUNDO: And you can touch any portion of that voting section there. Now what has happened is that you, in the President of the United States, you are allowed to only vote for one and that's one of the features of this technology. It will not allow you to over-vote. So I noticed you tried voting for....

PETER: For Marshall, yeah.

ANCHUNDO: ...and Thomas Jefferson, but it won't allow you. But in the event you decide to change your mind, go ahead and press John Kennedy again.

PETER: Okay, that unselected that, so I can change to Abraham Lincoln.

ANCHUNDO: Absolutely.

PETER: But once I select that, my other options are inactivated...

ANCHUNDO: They go away. So again, that's one of the unique features and because of the Help America Vote Act, of 2002, and the problems that occurred in Florida in the 2000 Presidential Election, one of the mandates, Federally that Congress passed, is that every voter has to be assured, at the precinct level, that they cannot over-vote. It's called second chance voting. Again, this technology affords that.

PETER: Okay. So, I'm going to skip over these other candidate categories and just go to the next screen here and I'm not going to vote for State Senate or County Commissioner and I'm going to skip the ballot measures here and that of course does mirror some voter behavior. There are some voters who come out and only vote for President and don't vote for anything else.

ANCHUNDO: And that's one of the beauties. You can under-vote, but it will not allow you to over-vote.

PETER: Okay.

ANCHUNDO: Okay, now if you look at the summary, it shows - the red shows that there was no selection made. So in the event you decide that, okay, I did want to vote for State Senator, you touch that section and it takes you back to that portion of the ballot.

PETER: Alright, I selected Ceasar Chavez there.... and then I go through the referenda again and so we now have that vote reflected, but none of the other votes that I passed up have been changed...

ANCHUNDO: So you're there now at the point where you're satisfied with those selections, just follow the instructions.

PETER: Next - okay.

ANCHUNDO: Now at this point and time, you're going to touch where it says, "touch here" and then it will allow you to see....

PETER: It says here, touch here to print and review a paper record of your ballot.

ANCHUNDO: And then it asks you again...

PETER: It says do I want to cast my ballot, am I sure? And I'm ready, I say yes, cast ballot.

ANCHUNDO: And viola,

PETER: Now I hear a printer activated.

ANCHUNDO: Now you review your choices on the print report.

PETER: Oh, I see, it's over here, okay.

ANCHUNDO: And it is, again, a report. It's not a receipt. The voter's not allowed to take that receipt. It's just there for you to review.

PETER: Alright, so here at the time, at the polling place, and you know, it's fresh in my mind, I know who I just voted for, and in this case, the test, I only voted for President and for State Senator, and it has accurately reflected those and so, I do have a chance here to make changes, if I wanted to.

ANCHUNDO: Yeah, if you're not satisfied with those selections, you can go ahead and make the changes.

PETER: Alright, at the risk of making this go too long, I'm going to go back and select United States Senator. The printer just put the word "voided" on the ballot information that had been previously gathered, and now I'm going to vote for Dwight Eisenhower, as United States Senator, and go through the rest of the screens here. Touch here to print and review. Now, to the left of my touch screen, is where the printer is located. I press cast ballot and it once again, will generate a paper copy of the votes that I just made.

ANCHUNDO: And if you're, at this point, satisfied with your choices, then you'll go ahead and cast your ballot.

PETER: It just made a little zippy phone noise. Now it says recording vote. It says vote recorded and at the bottom of my, it's not my personal receipt, but of the printout - it says that the vote has been accepted. And now the printer is scrolling forward, to remove from view my voter information, so that the next person who comes over will not be able to read it.

ANCHUNDO: Okay, Peter, you have actually had an opportunity to do this before, because I mean you sound like an expert.

PETER: I use optical scanners.

ANCHUNDO: Very good, very good.

PETER: That's the type of voting machine I've used. Alright, does that concl...oh, now we have the card, my voter card, just popped out at the conclusion of that cycle, and I give that back to the clerk?

ANCHUNDO: We will have a poll worker who will be responsible for recovering those cards. Now let's say in the event we have a crowded polling place and the poll worker is just for some reason delayed in their response, the voter decides - well, I've got this card... let me see if I can try voting again while someone's not paying attention.

PETER: Alright, I'll insert it here just for grins. It said this voter card is not valid, please ask for assistance. So if I try it again, does somebody come and escort me to jail?

ANCHUNDO: At that point, the voting police will escort you to my office and then I can't tell you on the radio what I will do. *Peter laughs* So, it clearly shows that the voter cannot vote a second card at that point, and then the poll worker will come and assist and then have the card removed. So in order to remove the card....

PETER: Oh, so right now the card is locked in there, because I made an unauthorized attempt.

ANCHUNDO: Exactly. And this device just will not be allowed to be used again until we....

PETER: I better get the hell out of here.

ANCHUNDO: You're in trouble.

PETER: Okay, now we're going to take a break and check traffic and we'll return with Tony Anchundo. We're also going to be joined by Brad Friedman, from the BradBlog.com. He knows more about electronic voting than I do. We'll get him to review the demonstration you just heard and then we'll ask some questions about how this all works and is it hack-proof? Either at this stage, or at the tabulation stage. That's what we'll talk about next and if you have a question or a comment, you can join us right now at 899-KRXA. We're going to talk about electronic voting this hour and if you have questions or comments, this is your perfect opportunity to come forward now, 899-KRXA. That's (831) 899-5792. You're listening to KRXA-540.

{BREAK}

PETER: And we'll continue in just a moment here, on KRXA, we're trying to get our computer under control.

{BREAK}

PETER: Alright, let's check traffic now, it's 5:19 and Metro Diane is on the case. Go ahead Diane.

*Diane gives traffic report*

{BREAK}

PETER: It's 5:20 now, from KRXA 540 and we continue our conversation with the Registrar of Voters for Monterey County, Tony Anchundo, who's in the studio with us, along with his touch screen voting machine that he brought in. We just completed a demonstration, I hope you had a chance to listen to that and Tony, we do have one complication. It appears that your electronic voting machine caused our main computer here to crash.

ANCHUNDO: Well, I can take responsibility for many things, but I refuse to take the responsibility for your computer crashing.

PETER: *laughing* Alright, we won't press charges.

ANCHUNDO: Okay.

PETER: And Hal's here trying to fix it right now. Hal, let me know when you get it back under control. Now, Brad Friedman, is our expert on electronic voting and he has looked at these issues in some detail and you can read his work at BradBlog.com. Hello, Brad.

BRAD FRIEDMAN: Hey guys, how are you Peter and Tony?

ANCHUNDO: Brad, how's it going?

BRAD: Very well.

ANCHUNDO: Good.

PETER: Now what questions do you have, just resulting from the demo, that we just did on the air here.

BRAD: Well, you know, I have a couple of questions from the demo and from what you guys have mentioned. First, Mr. Anchundo, I was just curious, what type of system were you previously using, prior to this?

ANCHUNDO: Well, we had a [inaudible] punchcard and as you know, the federal and state authorities decertified all punchcards throughout the nation. So, we had a couple of choices. Last year we began Phase I of the new voting system, with an optical paper ballot and then because of the necessity to comply with the HAVA Federal Mandate, we needed to get into this technology, to assure that we can again, comply with the issues and concerns with voting.

BRAD: What were the federal mandates that requires you to move from the optical scan to the DREs?

ANCHUNDO: Well, we have a combination. The absentee voter will be voting on optical scan and in our county, we have almost half of our registered voters, who vote absentee. In order to assure that the voters at the precinct level do not over-vote, this is one of the beauties of this technology, it won't allow them to do that, over-vote. In addition, there are certain ADA issues that have to be met. A voter has to have the opportunity, by themselves, and to vote a secret ballot. So someone who has a sight issue, or is blind, this system also has an audio device, that walks them through the voting process.

BRAD: But, my understanding, maybe you can clarify it, and votersunite.org has reported on this, they have a booklet called, "Myth Breakers" - are you familiar with that?

ANCHUNDO: I've heard of many of different publications. That one in particular, no, I'm not aware of.

BRAD: Yeah, because they said that there really wasn't a need for a lot of folks who were using the optical scans and so forth, to move ahead, that HAVA does not mandate that you do that. So, that's interesting, but I'm curious, mostly, as you guys were talking, unfortunately it's radio, so I couldn't see it, but you said there was a paper report printed with each vote. Now, is that a paper ballot?

ANCHUNDO: No, that's a paper report. It's just a verifiable paper report that the voter is allowed to review, before they make their final decision and cast the ballot. So, it's just a - it replicates what they had touched on the voting device.

PETER: And Brad, just to help you visualize it...

BRAD: Yeah.

PETER: As you're facing the touch screen, on the right hand side is a wing that has instructions on how to use the machine and really, the companion to it on the left, is this printer device with a window that allows you to see the paper. It's like a roll of receipts from a gas station, or an ATM, it's about three inches wide - maybe two and a half - and it scrolls upward and as I described, it first prints out the information and it was consistent and accurately portrayed the votes that I had made...

BRAD: Right.

PETER: And it allows me to see that and then I have the opportunity to recheck that, I can make a change, or I can just authorize it, essentially, to go to print.

BRAD: And when you, I noticed that you voided one of those choices. Was that after you had printed the - after the ballot had, the paper record had originally been printed?

PETER: Correct.

BRAD: And what happened to that voided paper?

PETER: It just rolled over. Where did it go, Tony? It rolled over into the back.

ANCHUNDO: It just scrolled, as you mentioned, and it's on a spool and it will just stay there attached to it, till the end of the evening, or in a case in a major election, if more than 200 votes are cast, then that would be time...

PETER: Time to change the toilet paper.

ANCHUNDO: ...to remove and put on a new roll of toilet paper, correct.

BRAD: Yeah, and is that voided one, you said it was marked voided, was it marked over the ballot? Clearly voided on the actual votes themselves?

ANCHUNDO: Well, the votes are stored on a cartridge and that's inevitably will come to us on election night. But one of the things that Peter and I were talking about, and some of his staff members, that you know, we are going to do an accountability. We are going to go through at the end of the evening and to assure that those paper reports coincide with the results of that particular precinct. So, it's voided on the paper, but it's also voided on the cartridge.

BRAD: But I mean, is the word voided, cause I understand a problem with the Sequoia toilet paper rolls, is that when they mark voided - that it's very difficult when you then go back to count them manually, to determine the voided votes, from the actual votes, because it keeps the voided votes right there with the actual votes.

PETER: Well, to your point, Brad, as I looked at it, and I'm not an election specialist, but the paper report was specific to my voting and at the bottom of it, the word void was in large type, larger font than the regular type that reflected the voting report. But to be specific, it does not print over the printed results that I had previously put in there.

BRAD: So if someone was manually counting off of that paper, there could be confusion as far as which ones were the voided votes and which ones were the legitimate votes?

ANCHUNDO: Oh, absolutely. But one of the necessities of any new technology, regardless if it's for voting or for any industry, that there is a learning curve and we're certainly going to have to spend some time and...

PETER: I would offer, excuse me Tony, that this is far less subjective than a hanging chad, or even a dimple chad - or my nephew, Chad.

BRAD: Sure, right, I guess the question though is, you know, is it less subjective than a vote count and it sounds like Mr. Anchundo is suggesting that the vote count will actually be taken from the cartridge. So in other words, when one votes, and you see that result on that piece of paper, how does a voter, or anyone else know that what is actually marked on the cartridge, is the same as what's on paper?

ANCHUNDO: Well, how will the voter know? They won't know, obviously, at that time. There is obviously going to have to be some trust and faith in the elections official, or in this case, it's me. You know, I wouldn't even think about rolling something of this nature out to the electorate, unless I felt convinced. There's been a tremendous amount of time and energy testing and yes, there's always going to be issues and concerns. But again, I believe there's enough checks and balances and in the official canvass, you know, after the election - that will be an opportunity to assure that the integrity of the process has been upheld. And, I'll tell you right now, and I'm telling all the KRKA listeners...

PETER: KRXA.

ANCHUNDO: Oh, sorry, KRXA listeners, that if there is a problem, if there is some concerns and the integrity is not upheld, I'll be the first to come out and say, we're going to do this all over again.

BRAD: When you say do it all over again, what do you mean? Re-vote?

ANCHUNDO: Well, if we have to, I'll go and sue myself and go before a superior court judge and ask that we do the election again.

BRAD: Well, let's say there is a discrepancy between the cartridge votes and what's on the paper - and I'm not sure how you're going to audit them, but, let's say however the audit is, a variegated audit, or you do a complete hand recount and they don't match up, uh, which is the ballot of record? The paper or what's on the cartridge?

ANCHUNDO: Well, again, if they don't match up, we obviously have an issue. And then at that point I will have to make an administrative decision and I have no problem coming forward and saying that, you know, I'm not convinced, I'm not satisfied with the integrity of the ballot count. But again, I would not even go forward with this technology unless it had been proven. And there have been weeks of logic and accuracy testing, within our office, in preparation for November 8th's election.

PETER: Now Tony, could you just give me a brief demonstration. Can you show me where the cartridge is and if it's removable, can you pull it out?

ANCHUNDO: The cartridge is behind the screen itself and we have a seal on it, so I don't want to break the seal at this point and time.

PETER: Okay, is it a standard component, like a zip disk, or?

ANCHUNDO: It's similar to a zip disk, correct.

PETER: But is it proprietary, so that I could not substitute a zip disk for that?

ANCHUNDO: Absolutely. It is proprietary software and so if you attempted to put another type of disk inside it, it obviously wouldn't read it.

PETER: Alright, Brad, hang on, we're going to take a break and when we come back I think, if we're in sink here, I want to move to the tabulation phase and talk about how the votes that are collected on this cartridge, are then transferred into the computers that make the final tally and produce the vote count. Is that cool with you?

BRAD: Fine with me, I had some other questions on that other stuff, but I'll go forward with you.

PETER: Well, we'll come back and deal with those, before we move on to tabulation. Okay?

BRAD: Alright.

PETER: That's coming up next on KRXA. I'm Peter B. Collins. In the studio with me is the Registrar of Voters for Monterey County, Tony Anchundo. On the line is Brad, from BradBlog.com and you can get on the line too. We'll take your calls in the next segment.

{{BREAK}}

PETER: You're listening to KRXA 540. November 8th is the special election in California and we're talking about the techniques that are going to be used here in Monterey County, the new DRE machines. These are electronic touch screen voting machines, with a paper report that is visible to the voter. The voter does not leave the polling place with a printed receipt, but it does provide verification on the scene, at the time of voting, for the voter, him or herself, to evaluate whether the machine properly captured the intended votes. Our guest is Tony Anchundo, he's the Monterey County Registrar of Voters for the whole county and Brad, Brad Friedman, from BradBlog.com, is on the line with us. Brad, I wanted to let you ask the rest of your questions about the voting machine itself, and then we'll talk about tabulating, and the hackability of that phase of the voting process.

BRAD: Uh, yeah, and first by the way, I want to thank Mr. Anchundo for coming out and being willing to talk about this and answer these questions. It's obviously very important that the voters, you know, have confidence in the vote, it's the most important part of democracy. And that brings me to a question. You suggest that we should trust you, that everything is okay here and that you'll make a decision - I guess there's nothing in law, about whether it's the cartridge count, or the paper count, which becomes the ballot of record. But, I'm concerned about faith-based voting. *Peter laughs*

PETER: Lemme just jump in, Brad. You basically are implying that you prefer the paper record, that that's a tangible item that cannot be changed through remote access by computer, for example.

BRAD: Well, yeah, and also the paper is what is actually validated by the voter and Mr. Anchundo suggests that what's written to the memory cartridge is the same as what's on the paper, but admits that there's really no way that the voter knows that. So I'm not sure how we will know that our vote is to be counted accurately at all.

ANCHUNDO: Well, again, and believe me, I've heard these questions and concerns over the years and when we first rolled this voting system out in 1999, we certainly didn't have the same number of people out there that had similar concerns. But again, I believe - and you know, as I mentioned earlier, that trust and faith in the elections official is important. But this technology would not be available, at any level, unless both the federal and state authorities provided that type of support. So again, it's just not my trust and faith that you have, that they've gone through stringent tests to ensure the integrity. And I would not have even come close to using this type of system unless I had used it before. But, we do have that voter-verifiable paper receipt and I will have an opportunity to go through each and every precinct, to assure that what comes out on the tabulation, supports the same record that comes out on that report that the voters get to see when they cast their ballots.

BRAD: Well, in regard to, uh, you say that federal authorities have approved this system, you are familiar with the non-partisan GAO report that came out on Friday?

ANCHUNDO: I'm familiar with all the reports that pretty much have come out, concerning DRE voting.

BRAD: Right. On Friday, the GAO put out over a hundred and seven page report saying that, in fact, confirming to those of us who have security concerns about these machines and they confirmed that in fact, votes were lost and miscounted in the last election, that there was problems with all of these machines, uh, and so, and in fact Sequoia, itself, who's machine's you're using, is currently facing a lawsuit in Snohomish County, Washington, concerning exactly some of the things that we're talking about. So, I think you're a good guy, I have no reason to... are you guys partisan officials or non-partisan officials?

ANCHUNDO: We're non-partisan. I'm not an elected official like in some other counties, I'm appointed by a County Administrative Officer.

BRAD: Is the County Administrative Officer a....

ANCHUNDO: It's a non-partisan office, also.

PETER: Yeah, in California, they're non-partisan.

BRAD: Non-partisan, well that's good to know. But you know, surely, I'm sure you could understand that some people - I don't have any problems trusting you, but some folks might be concerned that a voting system that relies on your good faith here, with machines that have been proven to cause problems all over the country, is not a great way to run an election and people have a good reason to be concerned and even you suggest that the papers, the recount, if there is one, you know, there's no rules in place for whether it's the paper or the... *station jingle for Tom Hartman plays*

PETER: Thanks, Tom. Go ahead. Tom just jumped in there, we're blaming the voting machine.

BRAD: Well, he's got some opinions about voting machines too. But as I said, you admitted there was no rule, I guess, or law in place about who's count wins, if there is any discrepancy, and I'm wondering what type of discrepancy would cause a full hand recount of those toilet paper rolls...

PETER: Yeah, what level would the discrepancies have to rise to Tony?

ANCHUNDO: Well, first of all, the California Election [inaudible] provides if in the event there is any tampering, if there's misconduct at a polling place, if anyone in the elections department has undermined the integrity, then immediately there can be a contest, or a recount filed. So it certainly doesn't have to come from me, if there's something that has occurred, in the election's process, that would certainly generate some opportunity for a contest. But again, you know, I've been in elections for thirty-one, plus, years and there's always the possibility that there could be issues. Even with paper. So, you know, paper is not, by far, the most error-proof. There is, of course, an audit trail, but I have seen many things happen. Again, what happened in Florida in 2000 and that happened probably in every state throughout the nation at some point and time. So paper is not one-hundred percent either.

BRAD: Well, nothing is one-hundred percent, but you said it's not the most fail-proof, I'd be curious what is more fail-proof than paper, but..

ANCHUNDO: Well, what happens if you lose, if on your way, after the poles have closed and you have your poll workers, and this has actually happened, where the poll worker sets their paper ballots on the roof of their car, as they're setting their supplies in, forgets that the ballots are on the roof, takes off and has no ballots.

PETER: They were lost?

ANCHUNDO: They were lost, they were just scattered all over the street... I mean...

PETER: A couple of elections ago, there were boxes of ballots in San Franciso, that fell off a pier, into the bay.

BRAD: Well indeed, the chain of custody is very important. But he said that there was something more.... less foolproof than paper and I'm not sure what it is, but in the event of a recount, whether there is, you said if there was [inaudible] that might trigger a recount. But again, in that recount, the question becomes - is it the paper or is it the electronics that are going to be used as the final arbiter and it sounds like, Monterey County at least, does not have any laws in place to determine that, is that correct?

ANCHUNDO: Well, the law is not Monterey County, it's a State Law, and at this point and time, it would be the combination of recounting the results cartridge and then comparing it to the paper report that mirrors the results that's stored on the cartridge.

BRAD: Okay, I understand that, but I'm just wondering if there's a discrepancy between those two, as you know, in Ohio, it was really only a matter of six votes difference in each precinct in the state of Ohio, had gone for Kerry instead of Bush, we would have a different President now. So I'm trying to figure out what will trigger a full hand count of the ballots and if there is one and it doesn't match from the machine count, again, what is the number that the voters can trust will be the actual vote that is counted.

ANCHUNDO: Okay, well that's a good question, and until it happens here in Monterey County, I don't have an answer.

BRAD: It seems like it's something we should know beforehand, frankly.

ANCHUNDO: I already told you what we intend to do, it will be a combination of the verification of the results cartridge and the paper. And in the event those numbers don't mirror one another, and I'm not convinced, I will, you know, take whatever steps necessary and I have no problem going to judicial authority at that point and time. Again, you know, so many things can happen in elections and I'm not just going to come up with a response that will satisfy individuals. There's a right way and a wrong way and the right way is to do what's proper. And if it doesn't come out, I'll, I'll, I'll make it right.

BRAD: I'm not looking to be satisfied, I'm really just looking for an answer. Would you, do you have more confidence that the paper number would be corre.... let's say it was off by six votes in a precinct, would you consider that the paper is correct, or would you consider that the machine's count was correct, since apparently this is up to you to decide what is actually going to be the voter's choice in this matter.

ANCHUNDO: Well, then we have a third backup. There's redundancy, you have the results cartridge, it has a built-in CPU - and then we have the paper report. So we'll let the CPU give us, that'll be the third way to verify the results.

BRAD: So you would go to the - what the computer says, not what the voter verified, correct?

ANCHUNDO: Well, again, if we had two different results, then I would let the CPU give us the, to see which one it mirrors and whatever one it supports, that's the one I would go with.

BRAD: Boy, okay....*chuckles*

PETER: Alright. Brad, stay with us here, we want to take a call from Dave, at the Pinnacles. Dave, welcome to KRXA this afternoon and thanks for holding on.

DAVE: Well, hello gentlemen. Hey, I have a question. I've voted absentee for probably the last thirty years and I'm just wondering why isn't that, what is the percentage of absentee voters in Monterey, California, here and why don't we just go to an all absentee system? And my second question is...

PETER: Well, hold on, hold on....

DAVE: I'm about to be dropped off the air.

PETER: Oh, okay, you're gonna do that...okay, go ahead.

DAVE: Okay, my second question - why are we voting on the second Tuesday of November?

ANCHUNDO: Well let me answer the second question first. Elections are always held on the first Tuesday, after the first Monday.

DAVE: Ohhh.... okay.

ANCHUNDO: So, the first Tuesday is the first day of the month and so therefore we have to wait til we have the first Monday. So that's the easy question. The second one, Monterey County is number two in the entire state of California, with the total number of permanent absentee voters. As you mentioned, absentee voting has become just the way of voting, because of it's convenience. Of the hundred and sixty-thousand registered voters, more than eighty-thousand are absentee voters, so you can see more than fifty percent of the electorate chooses to vote absentee. I'm a big advocate for absentee voting. It's again, convenient and easy for people and, but, we also have traditionalism. People are always going to want to go to a polling place. Someday it will be like Oregon, where it's all elections are done by mail. I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

DAVE: Okay, well thanks alot.

PETER: Okay Dave, thank you. Alright, we're going to take a quick break and check traffic here. Brad, you stay with us, we'll be right back and then we'll talk about any other issues and the tabulation phase of electronic voting here in Monterey County. We're talking with Brad Friedman, from BradBlog.com and in the studio with me, is Tony Anchundo, who is the Registrar of Voters in Monterey County. If you have a question or a comment, you can get on the line right now. I'm trying to make this work and our computers have just gone weird today. That was supposed to be our traffic theme. Well, I'll just hum it for you and we're going to check in with Diane, at Metro traffic, as I hum the theme. Hey Diane.

*Diane gives report*

PETER: Thanks Diane. I'm Peter B. Collins, it's 5:46 now and we'll take calls, if you'd like to get a question asked or answered about electronic voting, Tony Anchundo in the studio with us and Brad, from The BRAD BLOG is on the line and we've been talking about the demonstration I got at the beginning of this hour, of this new DRE machine. It's manufactured by Sequoia Voting Systems, and Tony, did you have a choice of vendors? Because many of us on the outside of the election process, have noted that both Sequoia and Diebold, have executives who are tight with Republicans. And, so, we have a kind of knee-jerk reaction of hmmm, can we trust them?

ANCHUNDO: Well, there's always going to be concerns or doubts about the people that support either the Republican party, or Democratic party. One of the beauties of our nation, is that we have that right to make those type of contributions and there's always going to be someone out there who questions that. There are three or four primary players as far as vendors that are both federally and state certified. We chose to go with Sequoia Voting Systems because of the relationship we've had with Sequoia for almost thirty years here in Monterey County. Again we used, although in limited capacity, this equipment back in 1999. We're satisfied with the support, the technology and again, there are always going to be some questions or concerns and you just have to make the best choice you think that's available and it was certainly my choice, got support from our Board of Supervisors and I'm going to have to go forward with it and again, if there's a problem down the road, then we'll have to deal with it as it arises. But I'm convinced this is the technology, this is where we want to go, and if we didn't have those pre-logic and accuracty testing involved, then I wouldn't feel as comfortable. I'm good to go. Two weeks away and I'm ready to have an election.

BRAD: Mr. Anchundo, did any other companies submit bids for this contract, and would you be willing to release those logic and accuracy tests that you refer to?

ANCHUNDO: I would have no problem with that. Another county... excuse me, other vendors had come forward and from the beginning I had pretty much decideded to go to sole sourcing, and which is perfectly legal for us to do in elections and again, it was the satisfaction that this department had had and Sequoia was the only vendor at the point and time that had a federally-faith certified voter paper report and that was primarily the key for my decision.

BRAD: You're aware that Sequoia is facing a lawsuit right now up in Washington.

ANCHUNDO: Absolutely.

BRAD: Okay, but you're not deterred by that at all?

ANCHUNDO: No, not at all.

PETER: Alright, let me take a couple of calls and then Brad, we'll talk a little bit about the tabulation phase. Uh, Hal's on line 1, go ahead Hal, you're on KRXA.

HAL: Yeah, thanks Peter. A couple questions, Tony, I spoke to you before you went on, I really appreciated that. Who are the absentee *break in tape* ballots? When the results are announced, are the absentee ballots just folded right into the results of the machine count, or are they published separately, and are the absentee ballots always tabulated? And I have a follow-up question.

ANCHUNDO: Okay, well first of all the absentee results are the first to be released at [inaudible] office, because we have received thousands prior to the time the polls are closed. And of course they are combined with the precinct results as the evening goes on. So, and we keep them separate. We have a separate report, although you have a cumulative report, we still keep them separately. We have absentees and precinct results. And then of course, post-election, where you have all the late absentees that are turned in at the polls, or are received too late to process, then as we do updates a few days after the elections, up until certification, then we'll continue counting ballots until such time the final results are provided.

HAL: How are the absentee ballots tabulated?

ANCHUNDO: Okay, the absentee ballots are tabulated, via an optical scan paper ballot. So, as voters receive their ballots, they mark their choices, send them back in. We go through a verification process, to verify their signature, against the signature on file on their voter registration card, and then they're read through an optical scan reader.

HAL: Are they comb... is there any verification of a comparison of the optical scan read, verses the hand count of the ballots?

ANCHUNDO: Absolutely. We do, what's required during the canvass, a manual tally, a certain percentage to verify those results.

HAL: And last question, do you, will you publish the comparison of the hand count of the machine tabulation and as well as the machine count?

ANCHUNDO: Absolutely.

HAL: Okay, thanks Peter. Thanks Tony.

PETER: Okay, thank you Hal. And Dennis, in Salinas, you're next on KRXA, thanks for your call.

DENNIS: I'm just kind of with Brad. I think his trust is misplaced. I don't have much confidence in this faith-based voting, to tell you the truth and I'm just registering my complaint already. This is the first I've heard it, it's a good program. Is there any chance that the voting machines could be replaced by something else if..?

PETER: Between now and Tuesday, November 8th?

DENNIS: No, no, no, before the next election.

ANCHUNDO: Well again, I think it would be premature of me to just go ahead and shelf this voting system until such time it proves me wrong. And again, not to undermine the significance of the questions, but I would not have gone forward, um, I like my job too much. And one of the things I take tremendous pride in, is to assuring that we're not going to allow voters to vote on a system unless there have been certification and there has been testing. And regardless of whatever system, and when there's a human factor involved, there's always that risk that something could go wrong. But I'm convinced at this point and time that the selection that has been made and the certification, both in the federal and state level, is enough for us to go forward.

BRAD: The Federal Report from the GAO said that certification was not, in fact, adequate. So, that's a great concern, but perhaps you can let the listeners know - perhaps you could explain the audit process, precisely, that you had referred to, so that we can know for a fact that they both match up with the paper, and as well, I'm wondering if you could let us know, do these machines have hardware, that would allow them to be networked, either by modem, or Ethernet, or wirelessly?

ANCHUNDO: Uh no. Let me answer the final question. They are not, uh, uh, allowed to be hooked up to a computer, or some type of network. They're a stand alone. It's a proprietary software, so they're not networking, no.

PETER: No remote access to them at all?

ANCHUNDO: No, there's no remote access to them at all.

BRAD: There's no modems in those machines?

ANCHUNDO: Uh, no there isn't.

BRAD: Is there modems in the tabulator machine that you use?

ANCHUNDO: Uh, no there isn't.

BRAD: And there's no ethernet or wireless networking that's possible with those machines?

ANCHUNDO: No, not with all the firewalls that exist. No, this is a stand alone network, it's not even hooked up to our system. It's it's own system that is unique to this vote tabulation system and again, it's not networked to any system throughout our office.

PETER: And will the cartridges be removed from the machines to be sent to your central office for tabulation, or will the whole machine be sent?

ANCHUNDO: No, it would be a combination of removing the cartridge and returning it on election night and the units themselves being returned.

PETER: Okay, but physically, does the cartridge end up going to the central tabulation center, or does it get modemed in?

ANCHUNDO: No, no, it comes to the central tabulation center in Salinas, so every relocation throughout the county, the cartridges are removed and returned individually to Salinas, where our central county location is.

PETER: Now just about three minutes remaining, Brad, let me just ask a couple of quick questions here. Talk about the security of your tabulation system, Tony.

ANCHUNDO: Okay, first of all, the entire office has a security system and then we have monitors, closed-circuit monitors, throughout the office. The actual computer room has it's own separate alarm system. Everything that is prepared is prepared within that computer room. All the tabulation, all the results cartridges will be brought into that particular location where the results will be tabulated and then released to the public.

BRAD: Is that, that refers to the physical security, but you referred to firewalls. Is that to keep people from coming in across the network, because you've got the firewalls in place?

ANCHUNDO: Well, first of all, again, the entire system, the computers that generate the tabulation and establish the election parameters, is not connected to any system, within the county, or even the election's management system.

BRAD: Or the internet?

ANCHUNDO: Or the internet.

BRAD: So it doesn't even have a wireless networking card in that machine?

ANCHUNDO: That's correct.

BRAD: That's good to know.

ANCHUNDO: Very good.

PETER: Alright, anything else on tabulation, Brad?

BRAD: Uh, well, yeah, I'm concerned with that three-digit number you said that you put in. Is there anything that would keep a precinct worker, for example, from putting in a different number, for a different precinct with that card?

ANCHUNDO: Well, if they attempt to put a different number, then it will come up saying that it's an incorrect number.

BRAD: Okay, and you didn't get a chance to explain, I don't know if we have time, but very quickly perhaps, that audit process you discussed, that you have in place to assure that the paper is the exact same number as the machine count.

ANCHUNDO: Yeah, we've been going through extensive pre-logic and accuracy tests, but we made pre-determined choices on the touch screen and then review them, with the paper, and then we remove the results cartridge, read it, to assure that those pre-determined choices that were conducted on every voting device before it goes out, matches up.

BRAD: No, I meant afterwards, is there any audit of the paper, to match it against the machine totals.

ANCHUNDO: Well, yes, in the post-election, the official canvass, as we refer to it, we will pull each and everyone of those reports and verify it against the votes cast for that particular unit, in that precinct.

BRAD: You mean the reports, you mean the actual ballots that were printed out, that Peter saw printed out there?

ANCHUNDO: That's correct.

BRAD: You're going to count all of them?

ANCHUNDO: You have it.

BRAD: You're going to count all of them by hand?

ANCHUNDO: Absolutely.

BRAD: Okay, well I'm glad to hear that you're going to count all of the ballots by hand and I only hope that if they don't match up, that the paper ends up being the ballot of record in this case. Okay.

ANCHUNDO: Okay, well, you know I appreciate everything, and again, you know, the questions and the responses may not have been to your satisfaction, but I think it's important that we do everything that we can to assure the integrity in Monterey County and we're going to do just that.

PETER: Alright, Brad, thank you very much. I have one final, simple question. Are these machines able to be programmed, for instant runoff voting, if that is adopted here?

ANCHUNDO: Well, it's not going to happen in Monterey County, you're going to have to go to San Francisco for an instant runoff.

PETER: Right, but can the machine be modified, if that became the case.

ANCHUNDO: In fact, Sequoia recently was rewarded the contract for San Francisco, because of their ability to do the instant runoff.

PETER: Alright. Brad, thank you for joining us today.

BRAD: My pleasure, thank you Peter, and thank you Mr. Anchundo, appreciate it.

PETER: That's Brad Friedman, you can read his work at BradBlog.com. And Tony Anchundo, thank you for joining us, a pleasure to meet you and have a great night on November the 8th.

ANCHUNDO: Peter, thank you and thank you at KRXA listeners.

PETER: Alright, my pleasure.