Frist!

This memo has GOT to come out! I hope the Brits get this thing published SOMEWHERE!!

Someone fax a copy to Brad, he will reveal it.

{ed note: Obnoxious, incorrect, misleading comment deleted. Comments by this author to be removed for frequent and flagrant inability to follow and respect the few rules of commenting that we have here.}

That Bush was apparently seriously considering bombing Al Jazeera is staggering. An attack on the free press. An attack on a sovereign country. An attack on an ally. An attack on innocent civilians. Count the ways in which just the thought is heinous and indicative of a mind besotted with power and in love with violence.

But what makes it even more horrifying is the thought that the whole point was to try to stifle coverage of Falluja.

There's way too much smoke here for there not to be fire; duhbaya and his handlers have lied about everything else to us, and I mean everything, to the point where we can always safely assume that they're lying. Keeping secrets to keep the nation secure is, I suppose, a necessary, occasional evil, but keeping secrets to cover the ass's ass is another matter entirely. Too bad we no longer have a conscientious mainstream media. Good thing we have people like Brad and his glorious crew to step into the breach. Keep on keeping on, folks. We love you and we'll do whatever we can to help.

Who was it who first said, "It's not lies we're afraid of, it's the truth."????

I think it was either Josef Stalin or O.J. Simpson's lawyers.

Oddie #3

You say "you're supporting the enablers of murderers" ...

What, because we want the facts out? Because we want to know if this president advocated another act of war on a country simply because he did not like their press? What was it, a threat to "homeland security"?

The truth is neutral. It harms only the untruthful. If no wrong was done publishing the truth of the matter will hurt nobody.

So, if the truth hurts that is just too damn bad, and your lame illogical ramblings show you are truth challenged ... like bu$hit is holy grail or something.

Nope, no war crimes here. Nothin to see, just move along.

why don't they just copy this thing and mail it our all over the world. Official secrets my ass!

How is it that government is allowed to contemplate mass murder yet not have to be called to answer for its planning or consideration.

Now the admin is even threatening the UN in our name (link here).

Lets see, bomb peaceful nations and threaten the UN ... uh ... smells like neoCon "genious".

.
.
.
Tomz (#9):

That's called "freedom" --- Bush style.
.
.
.

Referencing MP Boris Johnson's "I'll go to jail to print the truth..." I'd like to ask why members of the British Govt (Galloway) seem to have found a measure of fortitude that our Senators and Representatives have not ? (sans Boxer or Bernie Sanders, though even they seem to censor themselves to a degree when it comes to out and out criticism of the crimes committed by BushCo)

Obviously they don't fear Bush. Why do ours? I mean, this charade could all be over if the Democrats showed some honesty and unity.

Great find Brad! The more they try to hush this story the guiltier it makes the Bush Cabal look.

Keep up the great work!

Jamie
http://intoxination.blogspot.com

There's no war crime, because nothing happened. But the point I was trying to make is that Blair knew bombing Al Jazeera headquarters in Qatar, a non-combatant in the "war" in Iraq, could easily have been interpreted as a war crime...if it had been done. Bush wouldn't have shown up to defend himself, of course, but a trial in absentia would have attracted world attention and left the United States isolated from peace-loving allies.

The concept that there's too much smoke here for there not to be a fire is kind of self-defeating, in a potentially circular, eternal, and yet elementary if given any critical, logical thought at all.

I think that:
> At first glance, it sounds to rate somewhere between "kind of absurd" and "There's an orange, republican dragonman living in my freezer who gives me advice on stocks, bonds, and strategic popsicle stick diarama construction techniques for elderly Martians and quadripelegics", on the "It is officially a specifically-painful chore for me to refrain from laughing like a stoned adolescent hyena at Comedy Nite" Scale.

> That such objects are discussed seriously as military targets by elements of governance is not exactly common realization in the minds of [at least] Americans (can't speak for the limeys ). That means that opening this particular can of worms and not others (many--BIG--cans all over the place...) is all but impossible. The American people would have to be told that some of those movies where subtle plot points portray various of Uncle Sam's elected helpers acting or speaking frankly, in Machiavellian terms in regards to the American public, or other countries' citizenry, may or may not have been based on actual events...which really doesn't matter anyway, seeing as how there ARE actual events of the roughly-outlined type, movie depiction or not...and that [I would assume], is the horrifying part to Joe Schmo Citizen, as it should be...

> ...so that this is the only thing leaked is not lending too much credibility to it, at least in my eyes. Additionally, who the hell would, of sound, logical, critically-attuned mindset, want to leak this silly, after-school-quality fare (wherein a monstrous charicature of the bumbling, yet evil and VERY prone to flailing, red-faced fits of anger villain comically has to be restrained by his (hapless or overly-competent...?) cohort as he makes an uproarious attempt at charging across the room and pushing the "Destroy Earth" button during a meeting of criminal masterminds...) given all the other, more viable, or at least SHOCKING(!!) exposiae`(made that word up myself ) just waiting to be written in the halls of that or any other statehouse that happens to be run by (*gasp!*) politicians...

> This is, given the high volume of [very suddenly-appearing] smoke and the teetering that it is doing on the line between childishly-hilarious and disgustingly torture-worthy, I'd say it sounds to me like cover smoke and mirrors for something else on the part of certain elements of the (National) Republican (Socialist) Party. Very reprehensible, and therefore comes complete with "Exorbitant Amounts of National News Airtime Guarantee", yet simultaneously is about as harmful as a sleeping turtle wrapped in a fluffy blanket with a cute puppy (surrounded by barbed wire, motion sensors, spotlights, and an entire platoon of Army Rangers, to guard them) to the career of a no-nonsense savior of a president (who currently has FAR loftier things to worry about--like how to gloriously save trees and rocks from the evil grip of Allah/Satan, thereby almost completely securing the entire world--literally--and being hailed as the guy who makes Jesus and Ghandi look like satanic gay lovers) at whom such laughable accusations might be seriously aimed. ("What--are you serious? I've got a country to lovingly run and a war to graciously win. I mean, chrissakes--Americans are dying, I'm trying to fix it and you seriously ask me if I wanted to bomb Cartoon Network?"--Sounds like pretty good ammo in the hands of this administration, given the opportunity to appear as the 'serious' ones for once, while vocal opponants are publicly embarassed...)

Down to it as of now, I'll make no assumptions, but--well, I'll put it this way: if you want to surprise ME, you're going to have to show me convincing proof that Bush DIDN'T ever plan to, or otherwise dream about (or even fully carry out...?) bombing an (actually, "THE") Arab Media Outlet.

Liberals of America support a network that prides itself on showing images of beheaded Americans.

Not surprising.

Bombing Al Jazeera: He was planning to commit a war crime, and an unauthorized act of war against a US ally.

Blair, rightly so, tried to talk Bush out of an attack upon our ally.

British government notes of their conversation went on for five pages documenting this discussion.

http://insomnia.livejournal.com/

............. this threatened air strike against al-Jazeera's headquarters, located in the middle of the business district of Qatar's capital, came after two previous US air strikes against al-Jazeera offices.

#16
Allow to exist is not the same as supporting!
Physically attacking media outlets is irresponsible in that it gives credence to their POV as having enough truth to be dangerous, whether or not it is true.

Ironically, this administration wanting to attack ANYTHING because it does not fully portray the truth is laughable at best.

Great video. Why can't we have news like this. I look forward to seeing the memo on the web.

Keep in mind folks, at this point, the "terror network" is a small band of rag-tag nit-wits that are attacking their own people and losing support fast.

If Bush can find a way to get "more arabs" in on the fight -against- us, he can make a "bigger case" for invading "more countries".. When you comit acts of autrocieties against a people, they "revolt".. Bush needs that to happen to escalate his illegal, immoral, unjustified invasion of the Arab world.

See, here in the U.S. it would be spun as an accident (like the other 2 bombings of Al Jazeera buildings).. Then when the "average" Arab people got pissed because they knew all too well that MORE innocent civilians were "bombed by bush" (remember the "insurgent meeting" that turned out to be a wedding?), they might take to the streets ..

Make no mistakes people... -if- (and it's a big IF, I know) Bush is trying to bring about the second coming of Christ, he has to make sure "those infedel Arabs" are out of the way. You can't have Americans (and good god fearing ones, at that) living in a country that is volitile with terrorism, right? So, get them all riled up so they riot in the streets, then carpet bomb 1/2 the damn reagion into dust.. spend American Tax Dollars to build up some nice palaces/embasies, then send in all your rich "saved" friends and wait for Christ to come pick you up.. While that is a bit "out there", if the suggestions of "some" are right, this is all part of a bigger move into the Middle East.. and blowing up civilians that could spoil your moves would make sense (in a psycho "I'm gonna rule the world!" kinda way).

This is from the homepage of Al Jazeera. I don't see any be-heading headlines. Even if their reporting leans anti-american, is distasteful, or is shoddy, that doesn't give the US the right to bomb them, especially in a peacful, allied country. We do need the Muslim world to fight terrorism. We do not need to alienate Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. by killing journalists.

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

Updated on: Saturday 26 November 2005, 0:44 Makka Time, 21:44 GMT

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Sorry to rain on your parade, but beware of the perfidious Albion!

It is a fact that the neocons and truth are like oil and water, they repel each other. Leo Strauss the granddaddy of neocons pontificated; 'society needs to be told consolable lies' and boy those bastards following him haven't half been giving it lies.

It is also a fact that Kate Adie (BBC before she was demoted) the grand dame of the war journalists is on record, telling of the pentagon memos that made it clear; embed or die!

Yet another horrible fact concerns the independent journalists' life span in the latest battle theatres involving the pentagon, which empirically is proven not to be all that long, and the numbers of the dead journalists of various news organisations, that have died in 'accidental' circumstances is the sad testimony for all to witness.

Hence, it should come as no surprise to find out about the plots for wholesale bombing of any news organisations that do not engage in foxaganda. However, what is amiss, is the records of a minuted conversation winding up on the lap of an ex member of parliament, and a special constable (voluntary policeman) who then returns the documents back to where they were purloined from, and then a pro-labour (GOP) newspaper goes on record about the contents of this secret document, with the promises of stay tuned more is coming. Those staying tuned then find the attorney general promising hell fire and brimstone to those who would dare to publish the rest of the document.

Now it does not take a genius to figure out Tonnykins Blair is in deep shit, and almost to a man of his constituency hate him, which is reflected in the numbers of the backbenchers squaring up to him, for any excuse.

Now he needs to put this lapdog and poodle perception to bed, and lo and be hold he is found to be in disagreement with his boss God's Own Sheriff Dubya. Trouble is people are not buying it, and more troubling is, this cretin ordering his attorney general to pounce on the so called free press. That in curious way is the ultimate display of the police state and the banana republic ranking of that once great united kingdom. Now all hail the chimp and his prayer posse who are trying to get away from their monkey god.

I think a big part of the problem with all of this is, the American people don't want truth. At least, that's the impression we get from all the "media" and "network" outlets. Hell, something bad happens on Thanksgiving day, and it's all covered up "real time" so people can continue "enjoying the show", and, more importantly, "advertisers don't lose their investment, even if they don't do a good job on their end".. That is, the damn float broke but they still get "good spin" for their dollar.

The same thing is going on all over the country (and parts of the world). Our leaders want to protect us from "reality" by lying and deceiving. It's shameful and wrong, but makes for controlling (and dumbing down) the masses much easier. No pictures of the caskets coming in from the war, not counting deaths of soldiers who die "outside of the country borders", even if they die in route to the hospital, or die in the hospital.. This is a huge PR campaign, and -most- Americans just don't get it.

I think the most appropriate words out of the news man's mouth were "washington is wagging the dog".. They did it for the first war (fabricated photos and witnesses to the incubators in Kuwait, etc), they did it to get us into this war ("mushroom cloud" and mental images of Sept. 11, 2001, even though there was NO connection).. not letting us see all the dead coming home, not letting us see all the innocent dead civilians in Iraq, etc.. This is becoming a mess on a grand scale. Americans are being lulled to sleep and shoved into pure "consumer mode" and not being shown the damage and pain and suffering our gluttony causes. 100s of millions of people around the world are starving to death and dying of disease (and some in THIS COUNTRY), but instead of "trying to fix it all", the richest of the rich just keep sucking up as much as they can..

Make no mistake.. Bush wanting to destroy Al Jazeera so it couldn't spread the truth is right on par with NBC not showing the truth about the parade.. it's all about money and power and greed in the end. Keeping Americans informed is the last thing our "leaders" want to do, and in that same vein, they wanted to stop the Arab people from being informed about Fallujah (preemptively at that.. guess they KNEW there would be a lot of civilian deaths and didn't care).

Official Secret (not an act): Bush is a lying murderer. It's amusing that the BRITISH government we broke away from 225 years ago is hiding secrets from their people with threats of imprisonment to protect them from the truth of the Bushit administration. That my friends is full circle.

Holiday shopping is up. It may be accurate to say, as was suggested above, that the people of America are pulling the consumerist blankets up over their heads for one more holiday season.

And in a horrible kind of way, I can see the logic of that.

OK, Epppie, I'm even more jaded than that. I think they are lying to us about holiday shopping being up. They want us to believe that all is well and normal, that there is no reason not to go about our usual routine. They want us to spend and spend and spend because that is how the extremely rich individuals and the corporations, including the media who are telling us as little as possible about reality and urging us to shop for their sponsors products remain rich. At the same time, I've never known so many people in my personal sphere of acquaintances who are out of work, out of projects, or otherwise underemployed.

I'm looking for a thicker blanket than shopping to pull up over my head.

Surfed on in from C&L and wanted to check out what Brad's been saying about this. This'll make my Assclowns of the Week post on Sunday all the better, since I'll be opening with it.

Well, it's nice that Dub didn't blow up CBS over the story on his non-service in the Air Force . . . which story was true enough, according to the General's secretary . . .

It's interesting that Boris Johnson mentioned Reagan's bombing Russia remarks. That escaped me the first time and I began my Assclowns of the Week segment with a parallel between this and Reagsn's joke. Then I saw it. Damn.

I guess the association was too irresistable to not make.

You have to wonder if Monty Python is directing the Bush administration's war plans because these last two months of surreal comedy defy logic. Bomb al-Jazeera because it was reporting what U.S. troops were doing in Falleuja? Better watch out, Brad, there might be a missile directed at the chimney of your house.

Re:the leaker and his motivation.

Cui Bono?

This story communicates to Labor that Bush is insane but Blair can manipulate him (marginally) towards an erzsatz normalcy because of Bush's childlike magical thinking wherein he and Tony are imaginary friends....

Hence, for the sake of the world, fall in line behind Tony; apres-lui, le deluge....

#23 Sav..excellent post...so what is going to be done to us that don't live in bush's reality and aren't dumbed down. Glad I am not in the ''fear' mode, haven't been there since 911 and won't even go there.

When I compare the fascism happening in the U.S. today and compare it to Germany, I wonder how it will happen. They have to get the guns. I don't think the average gun toting American is going to line up and hand them over....though a few have (the buy back program goes on in my part of the world now and then, me thinks it was a money thing). I think that will probably be the straw that breaks the camels back. When the NRA realizes they were used, the backlash will start for real, then the line in the sand will be drawn. I can see it now, all the bush crowd lining up to turn in their hunting rifles, but then, who knows, maybe I am wrong. Maybe they will do it with a smile on their face to support their god king pres.

I don't remember where I saw it, but some Republican woman was warning that it would be really terrible if the democrats had guns. Oh my.
Democrats don't own guns....so why do they fear the dems. Do not the republicans know that they are the ones being targeted? They are the last hurdle to the 'final solution'.

Then of course my mind wanders to what would happen if China came in to liberate us from our Dictator. Of course we would throw the Chinese army flowers and kiss their feet for freeing us. And the republicans who support bushco better be the first in line else they will have the word 'terrorist or insurgent' tatooed on their head. I know they would not fight for their Country. They can't figure out why those in Iraq are fighting the U.S. occupation...so would be really hard for them to make any connection. All that China would probably want is Texas and Alaska and of course the zillions we owe them. China needs lots of Oil to keep Walmart up and running and probably would like to collect all the money the U.S. owes them.

So, bush's base keep shopping and enriching the global elite, keep those stock portfolios healthy and Wall Street happy, until the next staged stock market collapse that causes you to loose your home and live in your car. The zillionaires don't care about you. The American Dream is dead. It died along time ago, when our dignity and morality was sold by Congress to the highest bidder. M4 (just realizing maybe bushco will just bomb us all with Willie Pete...melt us to the bone..would certainly take care of the gun problem)

What will it take to save our tax dollars and throw these corrupt , treasonous War Criminals in Jail ?!

Everyday it's scandal after scandal ( but no bj ! God forbid ?! ) Yet these thugs are still in our WH .

There is a serious dumbing down in America . I do not know how else to explain BUSHco and their crimes against Americans and the world -

Thank you for your work here. I intend to support you in every way.
Some of us have known about this and many many more stories just as incriminating or worse for some time now.
We need creative minds to come up with peaceful ways of grabbing the medias attention. The more fun we make it the more people will want to join.
See you soon, I will be sending many friends this way.

Can you say: "smoking cannon"?

Send it to NBC, CBS or ABC and Brad can get a copy out of their garbage and print it.

Merifour.. I'm one of those "gun toting Americans", and they can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

There's a -reason- the Founding Fathers included "bear arms" in the Constitution, and this is starting to look exactly like what they feared, and why it was put in. For "militas" to form and protect us from enemies "domestic or foreign".. Soon the domestic enemy will be on us, and god help them that can't or won't protect themselves.

I just worry because these are American made guns.. sure hope they don't jam up in a clutch! :hehe:

Merifour - Remember "Bowling for Columbine? Something tells me that those Michigan militia folks are not going to be too willing to hand their weapons over to the feds, regardless of who is at the helm. I don't know if membership in the NRA automatically means that you are a Republican, or necessarily that you agree with all of the official positions taken by the NRA. I think tha the "Charlton Heston is my president" bumperstickers are as much telling Bush he can choke on it as they did Clinton. Also, gun ownership does not equate to NRA membership either.

It's been a long time - five years or more - since I've owned a gun. I determined that having kids and guns in the same house was inherently unsafe regardless of what precautions were taken. I remember when I was a teenager and the ease that I could get into my father's guns, which were supposedly secure. I was never an NRA member, nor did I agree with their lobbying positions and tactics, particularly concerning "assault" weapons. But I wouldn't have trusted a Clinton government to come and tike my rifles any more than I would a Bush government. Savantster's point about the 2nd amendment and militias is all too poignant, and something that I have been giving much thought too of late.

With all the reporters killed in Iraq and now this bit, maybe it isn't just the corporate owners of the media preventing reporters from reporting what is going on in the world or in our own country.

These are strange days indeed.

also...
Sgrena and Calipari thought they’d escaped to safety, when an American patrol opened fire on their car. Sgrena was wounded; Calipari, an Italian national hero, was killed.

This latest scandal of Bush's spoken threat to Al Jazeera works hand in hand with the scandal of Miller at the NYT who acted basically as a White House implant into America's leading daily paper.

Personally, I have no doubt that Bush would bomb a press HQ. Look at how many journalists have been killed so far in Iraq. It is a record. As an American, I fear that the USA is heading in the same direction as Argentina did in the 1970's . Label any opposition as a terrorist, arrest them without trial, and then have them conveniently dissappear. Sad but true

And the patrol that fired at Sgrena's car and killed Calipari had been advised the car was coming. It was not speeding and posed no threat to anyone. It did not break through any barrier and did not accelerate.

This story is another ugly story that has been buried by the U.S. media. But people overseas don't allow their own media to be intimidated by Bush & Co., and neither O'Reilly nor Limbaugh is fluent in Italian, so the story won't die. It's a first cousin of the "Should we bomb al-Jazeera?" deal; get rid of reporters who write the truth whenever the truth conflicts with your agenda.

"OK, Epppie, I'm even more jaded than that. I think they are lying to us about holiday shopping being up. They want us to believe that all is well and normal, ..."
ChemBob

don't know about lying on shopping, but your post brings up something everyone is talking about.

My job affords me plenty of casual conversation with middleclass, fairly conservative folks, and one of the themes coming up again and again is these folks are constantly questioning all the sunny, economy is growing talk emanating from MSM . Almost all of them to a person offer up someone they know without a job, or having to take a 2nd job and they are all scratching their heads.

why doesn't this story get more play?

#39..Guess I am misunderstanding the NRA. I have seen literature from them saying to support bushco...so guessed the members were all about being republican. I have seen the bumper sticker you mentioned and didn't know what it meant. I saw the movie and how irate Heston became when questioned by Moore. I thought the sticker meant to support the Heston/republicans....didn't see the other meaning. Gun ownership is a hot button, like abortion, gay issues, moral values, etc. A grey issue, not black and white. bush sees everything in black and white. He also considers himself our new dictator, so logic dictates to me..that a citizen having a gun, is bad, in his mind. (BTW, did you see the article about CEO's now going on 'shooting' trips, instead of golfing. They fly in helicopters and get to shoot guns for the first time, more of a thrill than hitting a little white ball around..what's up with that)

I started to post about the al-jazeera bombing in my original post, anger that bushco is about silencing dissent. Went off on a tangent instead and got off topic. I was looking into the future, which I often do. I really must work hard to stay in the present when everything going on is so crazy. bush really is proving to the world that he will not tolerate Truth, he will silence anyone that dares to speak it. Our military is his tool in Iraq. The MSM his tool in the USA.

I remember during the '41' s war, Peter Arnett (CNN) stayed in Iraq to report. His character was constantly under attack and finally after he attempted to do an expose' a few years later he was fired. He saw a lot during those days, and rather guess he is lucky to be alive today, if he is.
Today bushco just kills the reporters who don't follow the rules. M4

About the Sgrena/Calipari incident -

Sgrena was investigating the White Phosphorus issue from Fallujah (if you saw the 27 minute Italian doucmentary) and apparently Calipari had firsthand information/evidence that civilians were indeed targets, and was going to exposed that. I'll have to watch it again for the full story, perhaps someone can post the link. I know www.informationclearinghouse.com had it available for download. Obviously Sgrena and Calipari made themselves targets, but after watching the documentary I felt that it was not Sgrena who was targeted so much as Calipari. I think he was the one with the goods.

About the NRA - I'm certainly not defending them as an organization. I think "Bowling" was right on (I actually have a signed copy and have met Moore 3 times, and contributed a bit to "Dude Where's My Country?") in terms of our national obsession with firearms. The problem with the US and firearms, as with many other things, is that we don't, as a public, have a particularly mature mentality about them - this combined with our general teenage machismo (evidenced by BushCo) is a fatal combination.

I support the second amendment in terms of citizen awareness of the federal government, and keeping themselves able to resist tyrany - violently if necessary. I think that was the original intent of the second amendment. Was it Jefferson who said "the tree of liberty must be nourished from time to time with the blood of martyrs"? The government has all sorts of quarantine contingencies for citizen uprisings, disease outbreaks - if we aren't prepared to act as citizen militias, we are well and truly screwed.

The problem with the NRA is that they don't act responsibly about gun use - oh, they claim to. But waiting periods for background checks are sound policy. Having certain weapons be banned is sound policy (although from a citizen militia soundpoint, if we ever had to contend with our military roaming our own streets - maybe not an unlikely scenario given apocalypse George - we'd be pretty underarmed in terms of firepower.)

You are right that the GOP leadership has turned guns into a wedge issue. It shouldn't be - protection of the second amendment should cross party lines. Democrats are not trying to "take away guns" but the Repukes make that false argument.

#12 There seems to be some misconception that the dems are gonna save us if only they have the courage to stand up. Well frickin wake up, smell the coffee, and get it through your head!!! With notable few exceptions the DEMOCRATIC CORPORATE SELLOUT ROBOTS ARE IN WITH THE REPUBLICANS>I COMMAND U TO GET RID OF ALL THESE WILLING ACCOMPLICES sucking on the tits of these conglomorant corporations. VOTE THEM ALL OUT>DO YOU KNOW WHY DIEBOLD CAME BACK???BECAUSE THE PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT KNOW ALL THE WAYS TO GET AWAY WITH SHIT AND GET AROUND the enstilled belief system that this show is run pro-choice. Put an amendment up for vote to cap or eliminate corporate contributions to people running for public office and force individuals to get elected on their own merit. How much does it cost to get on a soap box and talk. What if you plug in a microphone? You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out people. Vote for someone who has built a political record fighting for the cause of the working class or take a chance on someone who appears to have enough common sense to make an informed decision for the common good of America and the world. I believe people in other countries haven't given up on us yet. It's time to remove the BUSHIT BLINDERS people and fcken smarten up.

#47 SR..I remember the incident about Sgrena, caused some fuss here, then died. I am glad it is back in the press, at least on the net. I watched the Fallujah video....this sort of thing doesn't surprise me anymore. The U.S. has become everything we once prided ourselves on Not being..(some but not all of us). Maureen, another thread here at Bradblog, has been doing her homework and sharing it with us. Required reading for any that still believe we are an untainted Nation.

Back to the NRA, again a grey issue, can a hunting rifle be classified the same way as one issued by the military...are they comparable? I don't know anything about guns and think everyone needs to think long and hard on this one. So we will have militia's with hunting rifles fighting the military with tanks.....doesn't sound good to me. I cringe when I see the poor people of other countries defending themselves with sticks and rocks, against soldiers. We are always told the soldiers are the good guys of course and the poor rock throwing people are trying to upset things...ohmigod. So must still reach the conclusion that guns will be banned here.
The people will have to use rocks and sticks to defend themselves against a Fascist Neocon controlled government based on lies.

Or, perhaps we will just be sprayed with some new disease (as you alluded) to which there is no cure. Many scientists working on germ warfare have died too, in mysterious accidents. They created the germ and the cure, now they are dead along with the cure. hmmmm M4 (who believe the Power Elite have the Cure, just in case)

Gotta jump in with SoulRebel's #47. I have been involved in the gun control movement for years, dropping out of it (and all others - enviro, choice, health care, etc...) to fight the only real fight now, the election fraud fight, which brings me here to Bradblog.

However, I gotta say, if the people have to depend on our pop guns against our military, we're in deep do-do, for sure. I also gotta say that if we feel the only way to stop them is to have military weaponry for ourselves in our homes, then, again, we're screwed. All y'all have seen the tragedies associated with weapons that are meant to kill humans. Nobody hunts with an AK-47. Or if he does, he's a total pussy.

Most of us in the mighty American middle are non-violent folk who believe the pen is mightier than the gun. We will not fight with violence unless we are left with no choice. At that time we'll break out our legally acquired shotguns

What we gun-controllers are for is reasonable gun control some easy laws for "law-abiding gun owners" to go with if they feel the need for deadly force to be available to them. We just wanna keep guns outta the hands of our criminals, our children, and our mentally ill. Most of us see no use for a handgun, as it's only positive, conceal-ability, makes it the favorite weapon of the criminal. I grew up in a hunting household, and, though I don't hunt any more, I appreciate the thrill of hunting have no problem with others who hunt.
The Repubs, as is their way, have tried to convince America that we are trying to take away hunting guns when we are really just trying to bring some sense to our gun crazy country, where tens of thousands die from guns each year, where the average child is inundated with suggestions from his media entertainment and news that problems should be solved with violence. Most of us have a connection to a gun tragedy or two. And we are loaded with the sorrow of it.
If we ever make elections fair again, I'll be back in that anti-NRA parade for sure.

Sav..I thought gun owners were all part of the NRA crowd, you know the 'con club'. Could I have been wrong...well, at least we know the bush supporters will hand theirs in, cuz they believe in the pres and his noble cause and will do anything bushco and his preachers in the pulpit tell them to.

Can't we allow hunters and gun collectors to have their rifles, and still forbid handguns and other lethal weapons popular with street criminals?

The Constitution gives individuals the right to bear ARMS. But it doesn't say ANY KIND OF ARMS. For example, would anyone argue that keeping a loaded cannon full of mortar in the driveway, pointed at the house across the street, should be permitted? Or deadly explosives (WMD if you will)?

If a consensus can be arrived at that certain weapons should be illegal for everyone, then what is the argument about? It's really about an actor who parted the Red Sea and rode in a chariot race in the movies who has decided that any restriction on any weapon would inevitably lead to restrictions against all weapons.

Asinine, of course. We allow cigarettes but forbid marijuana. We allow some fireworks but not nitroglycerine. We allow bug spray but not D.D.T.
Our lives are subject to reasonable regulations, all having been arrived at through negotiation and/or compromise. But for some reason we can't manage to subject guns to the same kinds of rules that apply to cars, medicines, fertilizers, asbestos, gases, poisons, beef and dairy products, and even some fabrics.

I have to say, I agree totally with Soul Rebel at #47.. I think the problem is the NRA, not guns. The old addage "guns don't kill people, people kill people" applies, even though it's misused on occasion.

I agree completely that part of the problem with the NRA is wanting to remove wait periods.. I think that's kind of crazy. If it takes 3 days to verify you aren't a criminal (and to ensure you aren't buying a gun in a fit of anger), what's the problem? You've got 60 to 80 years on this rock, 3 days isn't gonna kill ya. I think making sure responsible people are the only ones getting guns is a good idea; I can't fathom someone saying just an ID should be good enough.

That also brings up the idea of assault rifles.. Personally, I see no reason for "mature and responsible people" NOT to have them (if they want them). Take a look around, you'll see that CRIMINALS have them (illegally). Criminals -will- continue to get them.. it makes no sense to let the "bad people" have that kind of fire power, and not "responsible people".

Which brings me to Shannon Williford at #50..

Assault rifles (to me) aren't -just- about the 2nd amendment and having militias.. that is, we go decades at a time (well, over 200 years?) with no seemingly "real threat" from within.. but, there's always the threat from "without". First off, our standing military is un-Constitutional.. We aren't supposed to have one. In times of crisis, the government is supposed to call up the "militias" and have them fight. In the interest of the government NOT being the ones owning the guns, the citizens are supposed to.

But, since we -do- have a standing military, one would like to think we don't need to have armed citizens, right? But look at where we are right now. We have a lot of our troops tied up in a hot-bed of violence over seas.. what happens if someone decides to come and invade the U.S.? Granted, that's almost unconcievable in this day and age, but it's still a possibility. Yes, we have "military" here in the U.S. and troops that could be recalled, but do you want to be walking around the streets with gunfire overhead and no way to protect yourself? A shotgun isn't going to stop that guy 1/2 up the block as he marches to you.. shotguns only have a range of about 30 ft or so before they are pretty much uselsess (for buckshot, slugs are a different matter). Rifles are -meant- to hit targets from 100s of feet away (some up to 1/2 mile or more). Shotguns are "close range" weapons.

Which brings up "handguns" again.. your assertion is they are only good for "concealing", but what about in your home? When you are walking down a narrow hall? past doors? and someone is in your house? If you only have a "legal" shotgun, you are in trouble in a lot of situtations. Handguns are about "concealing", they are about mobility and short ranged engagement. It's a LOT easier to move a handgun around and aim than it is a shotgun. Then you have situations like my mother's.. she can't lift a shotgun, she's partially disabled.. she could hold up a .32 or at least kind of hold it up.. but never a shotgun, and the kick would knock her on her ass and likely break her shoulder (or just launch the gun out of her hands if it wasn't braced against her body). There are a LOT of "valid" uses for handguns, saying they are only "concealed" is to do what Rethugs do and try to manipulate the argument. And a "concealed" handgun isn't a bad thing either, unless it's a BAD PERSON who's concealing it.

I think one of the biggest problems we have in this country is, we're going -backward- in maturaty.. An example would be Shannon Williford's statement about "the thrill of hunting".. For me, that's the WRONG reason to hunt.. if you get a 'kick' out of 'killing', there's something wrong with you (in my mind). Killing is bad, always. If it's "fun", you have issues.. And, I can see why not wanting people who have "fun" killing to get their hands on guns that could do a "lot more killing" makes sense. But, personally, "shooting" is fun for me, so long as no one and nothing gets hurt. The last time I killed anything "in sport", I was 13 and had a .410 shotgun.. was roaming my grandfather's farm and shooting at birds.. I hit one, from pretty far out (30 yards or so) and when I got up to where it was, I saw it twitching and trying to hop away. It was bleeding and flopping around and trying to chirp, but it had a hole in it's nect (and wing and one leg was missing). I started crying as I picked it up and made sure it was dead.. That poor bird wasn't doing anything but singing in the sun, and some ignorant piece of shit human came along and blew it up, for no -real- reason. If you ask me, any person "killing for fun" is stuck someplace in my mind under the age of 13 with no moral sense or no ability to understand the ramifications of their actions.. and, are exactly the people that don't need guns in their hands.

There was a time when people in this country had respect for life, for each other, for the world around them. Now we have a bunch of greedy ignorant fat lazy pricks running around the world. Bush is their poster child, caring nothing about anyone but himself (and his family, -maybe-). He's content to kill whom ever to have his fun, make his profits, be drunk/high on his power. And that affliction has engulfed 10s of millions of people in this country. We wreak havoc all across the world, 100s of MILLIONS of people suffer so we can live like we do, and the 'bulk' of Americans think "so? I deserve what I have, I'm an American!". Nice.. shit on human beings so you can have a disposable lifestlye, wonderful.

Back to a time when people, in general, were willing to work hard and had a general respect and maturity. Back when working hard meant having something nice, building up a home and legacy.. That would be nice.. but, instead, we have a society based on "gimme now! gimme free! gimme gimme gimme!", and the Repugs are at the front of the line, dumping billions and billions into the "stock market", living on millions in dividends, and the "best way" to get that "free money" is to move jobs out of the country, fuck over the masses living here.. destroying this country to make a buck on "investments", which isn't something everyone can do/have because the SAME people that are benifiting from pulling jobs are sucking all the pennies from the pockets of the people they just put out of work.

Bah.. long and off track.. sorry. But, I think it kind of ties into why I fully believe that Bush would wantonly kill/bomb innocent people. Hell, if the Sept. 11, 2001 'theories' are accurate, they blew up 3,000 of our OWN people to start this shit.. of course they wouldn't mind killing some faceless people from 1/2 way around the world.. and people who don't even worship the right god, at that! (well, according to christians.. )

RLM (#51) How would police officers do their jobs with rifles? They need hand guns based on their moving around a lot, getting in and out of cars, needing to be close to "suspects" and "criminals" and still have overall mobility.. Police need hand guns while other people have guns, don't you think? And, if cops have guns, why can't other people? Cops are "people" too, and we know from recent history that they are corruptable just like anyone else.

And, as pointed out in my (looooong.. sorry) post above, you can't manuver with a rifle like you can with a handgun. Protecting your house (inside) with a rifle isn't very reasonable..

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. If someone -really- wants to kill some